How Many Resurrections In Revelation? III

[Darrell C]

Okay, simple question and I ask that this discussion involve only the Book of Revelation. All we are discussing is how many resurrection are said to take place in the Book of Revelation.

For the sake of starting the discussion, I see three:

The resurrection of the Two Witnesses (which I view as two literal men);

The resurrection of the Tribulation Martyrs, called the First Resurrection;

The resurrection of the dead, which occurs before the Great White Throne Judgement.


Okay, feel free to state how many you see, but again, only the Book of Revelation, and how many resurrections said to take place in the time described there. I would also that technically I see four including the healing of the mortal wound, but am not dogmatic enough on that to say four.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Two resurrections -

1. The FIRST resurrection - Rev 20:4-5.

2. The SECOND resurrection - Rev 20:5-6 - AFTER the 1000 years.

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The FIRST resurrection begins the 1000 years and the SECOND one is where the SECOND death takes place ...

 

[Darrell C]

Excellent.

How about the resurrection of the Two Witnesses?


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Excellent.

How about the resurrection of the Two Witnesses?


God bless.

Interesting - though I think they are symbolic - Revelation uses the day for year model - so that is 1260 years in Rev 11 - the dark ages.

 

[Darrell C]

Interesting - though I think they are symbolic - Revelation uses the day for year model - so that is 1260 years in Rev 11 - the dark ages.

I saw that view presented in another thread, but I would ask, if that were the case, we would see the Temple preserved during that time, and there is no way to fit 1,260 years since we received the prophecy that we could make fit that model. We would have to see worship in the Temple, and there has been no Temple. We can't make believers the Temple in view because we know the Abomination of Desolation cannot be erected in true believers. Not to mention that we would have to have others worshipping in a believer and there is no altar in a believer.

Secondly, if it is not two literal men, what is it that dies, comes to life again after 3 1\2 years (according to the model), and caught up to Heaven? The Testaments, Law and the Prophets, nor any figurative picture of the Word itself could not be in view because God's Word is not something that can die, be resurrected, then caught up to Heaven. We would have to have the model correlate to those requirements.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

I saw that view presented in another thread, but I would ask, if that were the case, we would see the Temple preserved during that time, and there is no way to fit 1,260 years since we received the prophecy that we could make fit that model. We would have to see worship in the Temple, and there has been no Temple. We can't make believers the Temple in view because we know the Abomination of Desolation cannot be erected in true believers. Not to mention that we would have to have others worshipping in a believer and there is no altar in a believer.

Secondly, if it is not two literal men, what is it that dies, comes to life again after 3 1\2 years (according to the model), and caught up to Heaven? The Testaments, Law and the Prophets, nor any figurative picture of the Word itself could not be in view because God's Word is not something that can die, be resurrected, then caught up to Heaven. We would have to have the model correlate to those requirements.


God bless.

I also favor the two witnesses being literal. The testaments have long been fingered as the two but my question is, when they are taken off the earth after they resurrect, what is LEFT on earth? No trace of the word of God?

 

[Darrell C]

I also favor the two witnesses being literal. The testaments have long been fingered as the two but my question is, when they are taken off the earth after they resurrect, what is LEFT on earth? No trace of the word of God?

That's the singular point that cannot be justified. The Two Testaments, or the Law and the Prophets, may sound reasonable, but it does not fit the context of Revelation 11.

The Word of God never leaves the earth. It can never die.

And the Law will never be resurrected. That is the point of Hebrews.

In the Tribulation, in the first half, Judaism will, I believe, be reinstated:


Daniel 9:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


The Covenant in view here is not the New Covenant confirmed, or strengthened by Christ, as some of our brethren contend. The Covenant that would be relevant to Daniel's people, even in a prophetic context...would be the Covenant of Law.

Antichrist will confirm the Covenant of Law for Seven years, and in the middle of that period he will reverse his position and it is at that time the worship spoken of here...


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.


The ministry of the Two Witnesses lasts 3 1/2 years, during which Antichrist is powerless against them. At the mid-point they are killed:


7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.


The Antichrist is given space to continue for 3 1/2 years...


Revelation 13:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.


Both the testimony of Daniel and Revelation indicate seven years. The Lord reiterates that spoken in Daniel...


Daniel 12:6-7

King James Version (KJV)

6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Matthew 24:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:




We see that here also...


Revelation 12:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


That the Two Witnesses are literal men is the only position that stands in accordance with what is actually written in Revelation 11, and is seen in harmony with Biblical Prophecy as a whole.

There is a seven year period yet left to be fulfilled, and it is my view the Two Witnesses minister during the beginnings of sorrows.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And just a request, could the member that chose "none of the above" share his view?

I would be very interested to hear why you take that position.


God bless.

 

[Eliyahu]

Excellent.

How about the resurrection of the Two Witnesses?


God bless.

They are actually 144K.

If there is a resurrection before Re 20: 6,
It is not the first resurrection.

The first Resurrection means there is no resurrection before.

Eliyahu

 

[kyredneck]

....The first Resurrection means there is no resurrection nefore.

Eliyahu

Now THAT is a profound observation!:thumbsup:

 

[Darrell C]

They are actually 144K.

No, there are Two.


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

If there is a resurrection before Re 20: 6,
It is not the first resurrection.

That is only true if you impose a meaning of "first in a series" or "sequence."

Was this...


Hebrews 8:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


...the first covenant?


Was this...


Matthew 22:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


...the first commandment?

Was this...


Acts 25:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Then the high priest and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him,


...Abraham?

Thus to impose sequence into the meaning has made many seek to deny the clear statement of Scripture and seek out another meaning for the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses.

"First" here...


Revelation 20:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



...does not have to mean first in sequence, and when we can see there are resurrections unto glorification prior to this, we can be reasonably sure that is not what "First" means here either.

The first Resurrection means there is no resurrection before.

Eliyahu

While two means two and not 144,000, "First" does not mean first, lol.

Just as taken does not mean taken and left means left in Luke 17.

It is "First" because it id the "chief" of the two resurrections available to man:


John 5:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

They are actually 144K.

If there is a resurrection before Re 20: 6,
It is not the first resurrection.

The first Resurrection means there is no resurrection before.

Eliyahu

True.

So then Rev 20:6 is the FIRST resurrection.

Just as in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise FIRST"

I will have to go with the actual Bible.

 

[BobRyan]

I saw that view presented in another thread, but I would ask, if that were the case, we would see the Temple preserved during that time

The Temple in Revelation is the "Temple in heaven".

Rev 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple.

Where is the problem?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

True.

So then Rev 20:6 is the FIRST resurrection.

Just as in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise FIRST"

I will have to go with the actual Bible.

The rapture is not that Resurrrection though, as the souls of all who died in jesus come back with him at time of rapture event!

 

[Eliyahu]

No, there are Two.


Revelation 11

King James Version (KJV)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.





That is only true if you impose a meaning of "first in a series" or "sequence."

Was this...


Hebrews 8:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


...the first covenant?


Was this...


Matthew 22:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.


...the first commandment?

Was this...


Acts 25:2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Then the high priest and the chief of the Jews informed him against Paul, and besought him,


...Abraham?

Thus to impose sequence into the meaning has made many seek to deny the clear statement of Scripture and seek out another meaning for the resurrection and rapture of the Two Witnesses.

"First" here...


Revelation 20:5

King James Version (KJV)

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.



...does not have to mean first in sequence, and when we can see there are resurrections unto glorification prior to this, we can be reasonably sure that is not what "First" means here either.




While two means two and not 144,000, "First" does not mean first, lol.

Just as taken does not mean taken and left means left in Luke 17.

It is "First" because it id the "chief" of the two resurrections available to man:


John 5:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


God bless.

Rev 11:11 doesn't tell us the Resurrection.

Rev 11:9 mentions that they are not buried in the graves. How can they be resurrected?

1 Cor 15:23 tells us the order of Resurrection.

First : Christ
Second : those with Christ when He is coming
Third : the last after the coming of Christ.

Why does the Bible omit Rev 11:11?

Those are 2 witnesses= 2 prophets=2 Olive trees=2 candlesticks, who are the Anointed ones standing besides the Lord ( Zechariah 4:14), who are faithful cores of the Believers like 144,000.
3 and 1/2 days mean 3 and a half years during which 144 K are almost like dead but were not buried.
Only those 144K will be raptured as we can notice they are standing with Christ on the mount Zion ( Re 14:1-)

There will be no resurrection before the first Resurrection in Re 20:5.
If there is any resurrection before Re 20:5, Re 20:5 cannot be the first Resurrection.
Bible is not stupid.

Eliyahu

 

[vooks]

True.

So then Rev 20:6 is the FIRST resurrection.

Just as in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise FIRST"

I will have to go with the actual Bible.

What was the FIRST covenant, 'going with the actual bible'?

 

[Darrell C]

The Temple in Revelation is the "Temple in heaven".

Rev 11:19
Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple.

Where is the problem?

in Christ,

Bob

The problem would be this occurs after the Two Witnesses die. There deaths, resurrection, and rapture occur during the Second Woe, not the Third.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

True.

So then Rev 20:6 is the FIRST resurrection.

Just as in 1Thess 4 "The DEAD in Christ rise FIRST"

I will have to go with the actual Bible.

Only the dead are said to be resurrected in the First Resurrection. We could impose the living rising, but that presents the problem...

...who populates the Millennial Kingdom?

If the First Resurrection is the Rapture, based on Paul's teaching this would leave only unbelievers physically alive. And based on Christ's teachings, nothing that offends will enter into that Kingdom. We see that particularly in the Sheep and Goat Judgment of Matthew 25.

So how do you reconcile that problem, Bob?

And by the way, thanks for participating, this discussion is best when engaged in by pre-millennials.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The rapture is not that Resurrrection though, as the souls of all who died in jesus come back with him at time of rapture event!

When men are separated from their flesh it is their spirit which departs from them, and while they can still be called souls, we can see this taught by Christ Himself:


Luke 24:37-40

King James Version (KJV)


37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.


To my knowledge pneuma is never translated soul.


God bless.