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Rapture questions
- Thread starter Chowmah
- Start date
The glorification of the believer is described here...
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
King James Version (KJV)
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
...and here...
1 Corinthians 15:49-54
King James Version (KJV)
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
We know that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" means he is referring to something other than being translated into the Kingdom of Christ, plus, in view, like the first passage, is resurrection unto incorruptible flesh. This resurrection is likened to Christ's, so the only conclusion we can draw is that in view is the resurrection of believers.
Now unless we want to violate 1 Thessalonians and say Paul had no idea what he was talking about, we have to maintain the position that when the Church is resurrected and caught up...the entire Church is resurrected and caught up at the same time.
Both living and dead are instantaneously resurrected and caught up.
So the point is this: in both passages reference is made to being resurrected and being joined unto Christ. The "Kingdom of God" in view is speaking of Heaven, we know this because flesh and blood does inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God while in unredeemed flesh, and the Millennial Kingdom will begin with only born again and physical believers entering into it.
The conclusion is that the Rapture (the catching away) is the time when all of the Church is resurrected at the same time, and since this is not the case in the resurrections listed in the events of the Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom, then it stands to reason that this event must take place separately from those resurrections.
God bless.
I did post Scripture to prove my point, which is that both passages speak about the resurrection of the Church into glorified bodies.
Unless we want to say that Paul is speaking about two different events (and there can only be one resurrection in which all believers are simultaneously glorified), which we cannot, because both refer to being glorified, then we have to admit that both passages demand a resurrection which both living and dead believers in the Body of Christ are resurrected at the same time.
This cannot be likened to either the First Resurrection or the resurrection of the dead in Revelation 20, nor the resurrection of the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11, and since there are no other resurrections shown in Scripture, the reasonable and most likely timing of the Rapture of the Church is prior to the Tribulation.
On the contrary, I made it clear that the "Kingdom" in view was not the Millennial Kingdom, because we see that Scripture makes it clear that those entering into that Kingdom will be physically alive...not glorified. The only glorified saints we see in relation to that Kingdom are the Tribulation Martyrs:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Matthew 25 establishes without question that at Christ's Return the nations are gathered and judged.
The return of Christ will result in physical death for unbelievers, and it will be flesh and blood that inherits the Kingdom promised in Prophecy.
Christ answer to the disciples' question here...
Luke 17:30-37
King James Version (KJV)
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
This refers to physical judgment, and these are they of Revelation 20 who are not raised at the end of the Tribulation. They are raised a thousand years later to stand before the Great White Throne.
This same teaching is found here...
Matthew 24:27-28
King James Version (KJV)
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
...and though not as detailed it still presents the death of unbelievers, and believers remaining alive.
This corresponds to...
Revelation 19:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
All of the Prophecy concerning Christ's Return teach that believers remain physically alive, and unbelievers are put to death.
The consistency of this can be seen in the Old Testament Prophecy as well, where we see the Supper of the Great God also described there, as well as a clearly physical state where believers dwell in that Kingdom:
Ezekiel 39
King James Version (KJV)
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord God.
No unbeliever will survive to enter into the Kingdom:
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the Lord.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord God; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
Now, see those that live through this:
9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord God.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.
After the destruction of the enemies of God, their carcasses will first be eaten of by carrion beasts and fowl, and those who survive to enter into that Kingdom will be charged with burying them.
The seven month and seven year period shows this is not the beginning of the Eternal State, for no carcass will be seen there, because death will have ended with the passing of the current universe. It shows a physical state with physical believers who have been obedient to Christ's command...
John 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
God bless.
It is a consistent teaching of Christ, as well as Old and New Testament Prophecy, some of which I posted in the last post.
Another example is Matthew 25:
Matthew 25:31-33
King James Version (KJV)
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
In this judgment we see that entrance to the Kingdom is granted the Sheep...
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
...and the unbelievers will go into eternal punishment...
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Christ sums this teaching up here...
Matthew 13:46-48
King James Version (KJV)
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
God bless.
Luke 17 is descibing the Day of the Lord. Which certainly does not happen after the 1000yr period of rest
That was my point. This is what happens when Christ returns.
It shows the death of unbelievers. The "bodies" in view are carcasses.
Or do you think Matthew 24 and Luke 176 speak about two different events?
God bless.
I believe Matt.24, Luke 17, 1Thes.4, 1Cor.15 are all speaskin of same event
You do believe you are part of the bride. Yes.
MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.
One taken the other left. So where shall they be taken to?
JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TW
F A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION: [15] And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. [16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. [17] AT THAT TIME THEY SHALL CALL JERUSALEM THE THRONE OF THE LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.
Verse 14. One taken the others left. I am married unto you! The bride. The WORD of God says the bride will be taken to Zion. To Jerusalem, for the kingdom rest. Not heaven
MATTHEW 24 [36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. [37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [38] For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, [39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. [40] Then SHALL TWO BE IN THE FIELD; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [41] Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, and THE OTHER LEFT.
One taken the other left. So where shall they be taken to?
JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TW
F A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION: [15] And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. [16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. [17] AT THAT TIME THEY SHALL CALL JERUSALEM THE THRONE OF THE LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.Verse 14. One taken the others left. I am married unto you! The bride. The WORD of God says the bride will be taken to Zion. To Jerusalem, for the kingdom rest. Not heaven
I believe the passage that you quoted "twinkling of an eye" is abundantly clear.
What makes you doubt it?
1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
We receive a body that possesses the qualities of immortality. Why?
JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TW
F A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION: [15] And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding. [16] And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the Lord, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the Lord: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. [17] AT THAT TIME THEY SHALL CALL JERUSALEM THE THRONE OF THE LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the Lord, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.Do you doubt scripture above? Clearly says when the "bride" is gathered its off to Jerusalem. Not heaven
JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TW
Do you doubt scripture above? Clearly says when the "bride" is gathered its off to Jerusalem. Not heaven
Jeremiah is speaking to Israel. This is not relevant. Deal with the NT.
So your saying that Israel is the bride?
If so. Your right according to the NT.
REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:
Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.
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The verse says "flesh and blood will not "inherit" the kingdom of God, and that is what it means. It does not inherit the kingdom of God. It says nothing about entering the kingdom of God. Don't distort Scripture. Obviously Jesus entered heaven with a body of flesh.
Jesus will come from heaven:
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
When He comes at the time of the resurrection we will go to heaven:
Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
He ascended into heaven:
Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
Not only did he ascend into heaven, he will come again the same way:
Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Stephen saw Jesus in heaven, and shortly after went to be with Jesus in heaven:
Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Paul desired to be clothed with his body from heaven:
2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
Our family is in heaven:
Ephesians 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Our citizenship is in heaven:
Philippians 3:20 For our conversation (citizenship) is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
The Lord is coming from heaven; we will be resurrected and go to heaven:
1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The church will gather in heaven:
Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Our inheritance is reserved for us in heaven:
1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
Is that enough evidence for you?
Then acknowledge the point made, or at least show the error in the point.
Yes.
I showed you, lol, they will be taken in judgment which is physical death.
If you notice in the proof-text above that it will be like the days of Noah.
Notice who is taken:
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Clearly showing that judgment and physical death is in view.
JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TW
Verse 14. One taken the others left.
Sorry but this is a different context. The context dealing with the Lord's Return in relation to unbelievers, not believers, is clearly one of judgment which results in death.
And the imagery of the Old Testament is not that of a Bride, but that of a Wife.
A wife that is adulterous in may cases.
Then I ask you to address the point made in the original response I gave, and tell me what Kingdom you think is spoken of here:
1 Corinthians 15:50
King James Version (KJV)
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
God bless.
JEREMIAH 3 [12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou BACKSLIDING ISRAEL, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever. [13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the Lord thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the Lord. [14] Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: and I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TW
Do you doubt scripture above? Clearly says when the "bride" is gathered its off to Jerusalem. Not heaven
And this is a context dealing with Christ's Return and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom, not the Rapture.
There is only one Resurrection when Christ Returns and that is the First Resurrection in which only those who die during the Tribulation are raised, not the entire Church as a whole.
God bless.