Being saved and the 10 commandments

[Darrell C]

The disciples are face-down in the dirt - but Moses and Elijah are in glorified form speaking with Christ who is himself fully transfigured in glorified form.

Transfigured, yes, but not glorified. Remember that the Glory of the Son of God was veiled in human flesh:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


This is not just a figurative statement, Christ was God veiled in human flesh. The "kenosis" was not an emptying of Deity, but an emptying of the Glory Christ had with the Father before the Incarnation.

Before this the literal veil of the Tabernacle represented the element which separates man from God, and that element is sinful flesh. The Incarnation speaks of Christ becoming that Veil in order to open the way for men to the Holiest, defined in Ch.9 as Heaven, and that Veil was rent in twain in His death.

Just think about that.

You state that Christ was glorified at the Mount of Transfiguration, but it was necessary that He die before this take place:



John 7:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.



John 12:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

16 These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.



Christ was "glorified" numerous times in the Gospels, but we have to be careful we do not miss the context. Glorification in reference to the glorified body has to be distinguished from glorification in the sense of worship.


It was necessary that Christ die and then be glorified in bodily form:


John 14:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


These passages all point to after Christ's death.

These are not lost or unconverted or super-holy-but-not-born-again lost persons

Not lost, but not converted, not regenerate.

Glorification could not take place until that Ministry began. And no-one will be glorified again until the Rapture, which is clearly the resurrection of the Church accompanied by glorification, where corruptible puts on incorruptible, and mortality puts on immortality. When we die before the rapture we go to Heaven in spirit form, quite unlike Christ after His Resurrection:


Luke 24:37-40

King James Version (KJV)

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Quote:
Christ made it very clear the Life He came to bring was different than that which man had until then. He went so far as to say...


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


No man had Eternal Life before Faith in the Cross of Christ, and no man was Glorified prior to the Resurrection of Christ.

The text does not say that.

The Chapter most certainly says this.

Consider the Old Testament Saint:


John 6:30-33

King James Version (KJV)

30 They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31 Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.


Remember Christ has a beginning in time. The Son of God is Eternal, but the Messiah was promised in the Old Testament, and given in the Incarnation.

Now consider the Old Testament Saint's "life:"


John 6:45-50

King James Version (KJV)

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


Eternal life was not afforded the Old Testament Saint through manna, and in fact as I have shown the testimony of the Writer of Hebrews, those who received manna, nearly to the man...died in unbelief.

Note the reference to the New Covenant.

Note that no man has gone into the presence of God.

Note that Christ makes it clear the True Bread, the Bread of Life...came down from Heaven.

That is Christ, and what He came to give He gave by giving His Life.


John 6:51-54

King James Version (KJV)

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


Christ makes it clear that it is His death that provides eternal life. He answers how He can "give us His flesh to eat," which is faith in the Cross.


54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


In view is belief, which the Old Testament Saint could not possibly do, because the Son of God had not come, and He had not yet died.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Yes, Nicodemus should have known precisely what the Lord meant:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Gal 1:6-11 There has been "only ONE Gospel" in both OT and NT -

I would agree, and that Gospel began in the Garden:


Genesis 3:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.


That doesn't change the fact that it was hidden since the beginning of the world:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


It is now made manifest, in this Age. Not in Old Testament Economies.

And notice the obedience required: to the Gospel, which we see in 1 Thessalonians those who come under God's wrath did not obey the Gospel which indicates they knew the way of righteousness.

hint being born again is a key part of that Gospel.

Not in the Old Testament.

Not one man was born again from the provision of manna, which was not the True Bread.

Not one man was eternally redeemed, which redemption was accomplished on the Cross.

Not one man received remission of sins in completion, for the blood of bulls and goats can never take away sins.

That is why God can say in the Promise:


Hebrews 8:10-13

King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Remission of sins is only complete through the Sacrifice of Christ, and that took place at a point in time, and when it did...


Hebrews 9:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


And the Old Testament Saint simply did not receive the promise:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



Completion came only through Christ.

Their transgression received atonement through sacrifice of animals, but that was a temporary atonement which Paul makes clear came through a Covenant which was only meant to be temporary, and did not, again, nullify the promises of God:


Galatians 3:15-19

King James Version (KJV)

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


The Promises of God, as you know, predate the Law and indeed go back to the Garden.

It was never given to be permanent, and it was never salvific, because again, the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins, nor make the comer thereunto perfect, but...


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


The Book of Hebrews is one of the best declarations of the Gospel of Jesus Christ we have, called by some the "Holy of Holies of the New Testament."

I am very much inclined to agree.


Continued...

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Must we observe to keep the 10 commandments {including Gods sabbath day} in order to be saved?

Brother Chowmah,


We are not saved by keeping the commandments. This issue came up in the book of Acts, "5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them... .10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. (Acts 15:5-7,10-11)

One of the main purpose's of the law was to show us our sin by our inability to keep the law, thus it was a whip driving us to Christ by showing the reason we needed a savior. "24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster" (Galatians 3:24-25)

We are justified solely by the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9), however after we become born again we will keep the Commandments. This is evidence that we are born again, not the means to becoming born again. "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me" (John 14:21)

And finally, as Paul explicitly states to the church at Colossi, “Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:” Col 2:16 Days is italicized because it is not in the Greek but is supplied by the translators. The definite article “the” is not in the Greek either. The Greek simply reads “or of sabbaths”. Paul’s instruction is that the Colossian Church was not under obligation to observe Jewish dietary laws. Nor were they under obligation to observe Jewish holydays such as the Passover, Pentecost and Feast of Tabernacles. Nor were they under obligation to observe Jewish months (new moons). Nor were they under obligation to observe the Jewish Sabbaths. The reason for this is they were Christians not Israelites. Thus, Christians are not under the Mosaical Law though they are "not without law to God, but under the law to Christ." 1 Corinthians 9:21

Paul concludes by saying the dietary laws, annual feasts, new moons, and the Sabbaths were, "a shadow of things to come"


Brother Joe

 

[Darrell C]

Heb 4:2 "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also"

True. BUt it was not the revealed Gospel of Christ.

It was enshrouded in shadow, and were the First Principles of the Doctrine of Jesus Christ.

And we are commanded by God not to progress from those foundational principles to completion:'


Hebrews 5:11-6:2

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


Hebrews 6

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Spirit filled men of the OT "seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow" 1Pet 1:11.

There is no question the Spirit of God has always ministered in the hearts of men, however, we cannot ignore Christ's teaching of the Promised Spirit (The Comforter) nor the Promise of the New Covenant.

Christ established the New Covenant with His blood (death) and sent the Comforter after He had returned to Heaven.

We are ministers of the New Covenant, not the First (Covenant of Law).

Ps 51:11 "take not your Holy Spirit from me"

Which Christ assures us is not a possibility:


John 14:16-17

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Ezek 11:19-20 "A New heart" a "new Spirit" put within.

Only a promise in the Old Testament.

Realized through Christ and the New Covenant.

63:10 Israel grieved God's "Holy Spirit".

We can do that as well. Has nothing to do with the promised Eternal Indwelling of God, though.

Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"

In their "midst."

Christ dwells in us, not with us. The Father dwells in us, not with us:


John 14:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

And note this manifestation is clearly a future event, fulfilled on the Day of Pentecost, when the Spirit came.

Is 51:7 In their heart was written the Law of God -

Written on the hearts of all men. But not the New Covenant.

Ps 37:31 - "the Law of God IS IN his heart"

Yet he could not keep it:


Hebrews 8:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Deut 6:6 God's Word "in your heart"

Doesn't signify the New Birth.


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 2:28-29 "He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit"

Does not signify New Birth in the Old Testament.

Faith, yes. The eternal Indwelling of God?

No.

Again, we cannot impose the receiving of the promises when they are still yet promise.

Hence all the OT saints and even "Righteousness which is by faith" in Heb 11 regarding those OT saints.

They received not the promise/s.

"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8.

He had a foundational faith in God...nothing more. By this he was declared just, yet his transgressions would still need to be atoned for, redeemed. He would still need to be made complete in regards to remission of sins:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The OT gospel saved - born-again, righeousness by faith

Sorry, no.

Not even the disciples of Christ were born again.

and Moses and Elijah fully glorified in Matt 17 - with Christ so much so that Peter wants to make THREE tabernacles -- though face down in the dirt before them.

Sorry, no. They were in spirit form only.

Moses bones still lie in a grave somewhere:


Jude 1:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.



I would also mention that because we see the faith of the Old Testament Saint counted as righteousness, it is my expectation that they will rise in the Rapture being counted as of the dead in Christ.


Continued...

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Some may be tempted to think of Christ as a "legalist" when they read Mark 7 because it sounds so much like the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 - but Christ is not preaching salvation by Works --

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When Christ speaks of one of the Ten Commandments He tells us that they are the “Word of God” – the “Commandment of God” and “Moses said”

The Law accomplishes condemnation for the lost.

[FONT=&quot]But for the sa[FONT=&quot]ved - it i[FONT=&quot]s written on the mind and heart. The very part of the New Covenant most reje[FONT=&quot]cted by some and accepted by others.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

In Matt 28 Christ said that the disciples were to teach and preach "ALL things that I have commanded you" and so sure enough - Mark reminds us of the teaching of Christ as in this case above - in fulfillment of this command since Mark is writing after the cross.

But some might argue - "yes but Christ was a legalist" or "Christ taught legalism because this is before the cross" etc.


sorta like this

Sorry, but that does not sound like the New Covenant, and could not be because it was still an Old Testament Economy Christ was under:

That is a great example of why (for instance) our church of Christ brethren ignore not only the 39 books of the OT but also the 4 gospels - leaving them with a 23-book text of scripture for Christians.

Paul rejects that idea in 2Tim 3:16 so not everyone takes the Church of Christ solution.

But the comment raises a good question.

Was there a God-ordained gospel-of-legalism before the cross that Christ was teaching and now we should be oh so careful to ignore the teaching of Christ as "ChristIANS"??

Christ said that to ignore his words before the cross - is to build your house on sand Matt 7:

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.


So then is Matt 7 that legalist-Christ still before the cross like some might say of Mark 7 -- or is that the non-legalist speaking??

Accept His teaching or ignore it?

In Matt 24 "THIS Gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come" -- is that the legalist-precross-gospel that Christ is talking about or did He mean to say "that FUTURE post-cross Gospel - not THIS gospel - shall be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come" in Matt 24.

Which is it?

do we claim to be "NOT Followers of Christ for his was pre-cross-legalism" but rather "followers of Paul for is was teaching post-cross Gospel"??

Ignore the Jer 31:31-33 NEW Covenant because it is before the cross - and then accept it in Heb 8 - an exact quote as if Jer 31 was legit?

This is the question to be researched -- let's find the answer.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry, but that (Mark 7 teaching of Christ) does not sound like the New Covenant, and could not be because it was still an Old Testament Economy Christ was under:


Galatians 4:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


We also see that here:


Luke 16:27-31

King James Version (KJV)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Consider why Abraham does not say "They can hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"

Because it was not revealed in that Age.

Christ redeemed men from the Law, not into a better version of it.

That is why it is called the New Covenant.


God bless.

Gal 3 is talking about the lost state of each person to this very day "before faith comes" before they are born-again.

Luke 16 ends like this "IF they do not listen to MOSES neither will they listen though one rises from the dead".

Instead of trashing scripture -in Luke 16 - Christ affirms it.

Could it be that the teaching of Paul himself was somehow corrupt for not ditching the OT??

===============================

[FONT=&quot]Acts 21[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24:
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.”


Acts 26
22 Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come— 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: “Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.”
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening


[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

After the cross the sola scriptura model used against Paul was "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul -- were SO" Acts 17:11

Well then maybe "some parts" of the OT are still ok for us - but not others?

R.C Sproul may be in trouble on this point as well.

The Law of God


http://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/the-law-of-god/
Following the commandments of God is one mark of the true Christian
…
Historically, as exemplified in question and answer 92 of the Heidelberg Catechism, Reformed theology has viewed the Ten Commandments as the heart of God’s law. These ten elaborations of the fundamental principles of love of God and neighbor (Matt. 22:34–40) form the basic outline of what it means to please our Creator.
Coram Deo

In recent years, there has been a lot of controversy in the United States as to the placement of the Ten Commandments in public. In all of this rancor, however, we should never forget that the commandments should first be inscribed on our hearts. It is a good idea to memorize the Ten Commandments that we might know God and His will better, worship Him rightly, serve Him with gladness, and love Him more fully.

 

[BobRyan]

Every reference to "Scripture" in the NT is a reference to the OT -

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 24
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]44[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Now He said to them, "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled."
45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]46[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,
47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/quote][/FONT]


[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 21:42[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Jesus said to them, "Did you [/FONT][FONT=&quot]never read in the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot],' THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone;THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD,AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Matthew 22:29[/FONT]
But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]understanding the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot] nor the power of God.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 26:54[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"How then will [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot] be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Matthew 26:56[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"But all this has taken place to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]fulfill the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot] of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 14:49[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]fulfill the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mark 15:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And He was numbered with transgressors."]

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 4:21[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]Luke 24:27[/FONT]
Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 24:32[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 24:45[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Then He opened their minds to [/FONT][FONT=&quot]understand the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot],

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 2:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
So when He was raised from the dead, His disciples remembered that He said this; and they [/FONT][FONT=&quot]believed the Scripture and the word[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which Jesus had spoken.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 5:39[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[ Witness of the Scripture ] " You [/FONT][FONT=&quot]search the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot] because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is [/FONT][FONT=&quot]these that testify about Me;

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 7:38[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"He who believes in Me, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as the Scripture said[/FONT][FONT=&quot], 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 7:42[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the descendants of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 10:35[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]John 13:18[/FONT]
" I do not speak of all of you I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ' HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.' [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [FONT=&quot]John 17:12[/FONT]
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17:11-13 (in Context) John 17 (Whole Chapter) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 19:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
So they said to one another, " Let us not tear it, but cast lots for it, to decide whose it shall be"; this was to fulfill the Scripture: "THEY DIVIDED MY OUTER GARMENTS AMONG THEM, AND FOR MY CLOTHING THEY CAST LOTS."
John 19:23-25 (in Context) John 19 (Whole Chapter) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 19:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
After this, Jesus, knowing that all things had already been accomplished, to fulfill the Scripture, said, " I am thirsty."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 19:36[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, " NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN." [/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]John 19:37[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And again another Scripture says, " THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]John 20:9[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For as yet they did not understand the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 1:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
"Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Acts 8:32[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Now the [/FONT][FONT=&quot]passage of Scripture[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which he was reading was this:" HE WAS LED AS A SHEEP TO SLAUGHTER;AND AS A LAMB BEFORE ITS SHEARER IS SILENT,SO HE DOES NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 8:35[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning [/FONT][FONT=&quot]from this Scripture[/FONT][FONT=&quot] he preached Jesus to him.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 17:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
And according to Paul's custom, he went to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them [/FONT][FONT=&quot]from the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot],

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 17:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness[/FONT][FONT=&quot], examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 18:24[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was mighty in the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot].

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Acts 18:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 1:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
which He promised beforehand through [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His prophets in the holy Scriptures,

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 4:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]what does the Scripture say[/FONT][FONT=&quot]? " ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 9:17[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the Scripture says[/FONT][FONT=&quot] to Pharaoh, " FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 10:11[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the Scripture says[/FONT][FONT=&quot], " WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 11:2[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew Or do you not know [/FONT][FONT=&quot]what the Scripture says[/FONT][FONT=&quot] in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 15:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance [/FONT][FONT=&quot]and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Romans 16:26[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:3[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins [/FONT][FONT=&quot]according to the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot],

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day [/FONT][FONT=&quot]according to the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot],

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles[/FONT][FONT=&quot] by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, " ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 3:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin[/FONT][FONT=&quot], so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Galatians 4:30[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But [/FONT][FONT=&quot]what does the Scripture say[/FONT][FONT=&quot]?" CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON,FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Timothy 4:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Until I come, [/FONT][FONT=&quot]give attention to the public reading of Scripture[/FONT][FONT=&quot], to exhortation and teaching.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]1 Timothy 5:18[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the Scripture says[/FONT][FONT=&quot], " YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING," and " The laborer is worthy of his wages."

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Timothy 3:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]All Scripture is inspired by God[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and profitable [/FONT][FONT=&quot]for teaching[/FONT][FONT=&quot], for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 2:8[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, " YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 2:23[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Scripture was fulfilled which says[/FONT][FONT=&quot], " AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 4:5[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Or [/FONT][FONT=&quot]do you think that the Scripture speaks to no purpose[/FONT][FONT=&quot]: " He jealously desires the Spirit which He has made to dwell in us"?

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Peter 2:6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For [/FONT][FONT=&quot]this is contained in Scripture[/FONT][FONT=&quot]:" BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 1:20[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
But know this first of all, that [/FONT][FONT=&quot]no prophecy of Scripture[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is a matter of one's own interpretation, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Peter 3:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the rest of the Scriptures[/FONT][FONT=&quot], to their own destruction. [/FONT]

 

[Darrell C]

Quote:
But Abraham no more had knowledge of Christ our Lord having died on the Cross than David did. He did not place specific faith in the Cross, he only knew that God would bless all families of the earth through him.

The bible does not say that.

We know it does, because Scripture makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth.

David did not know.

"Abraham SAW My DAY and was glad" John 8.

Foundational faith, not specific revelation.

Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel"

Agreed.

Gal 3:7 THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

It was preached to Satan in the Garden.

That is why he sought to destroy so many male children. Because he understood the Gospel in limited manner.


1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

Same book, same Author, same subject.

Yup.

Just revealed progressively.

Quote:
Is it not understood that Christ is God?

It is which makes Him all that much more present and in-person God in the OT

"Seeking of whom the SPIRIT OF CHRIST WITHIN THEM was speaking"

Doesn't nullify Christ's teaching that the Comforter would begin a new ministry in the World. One of conviction, one of indwelling, one which was promised.

I agree that the Son of God is the One that visited men, for thus do we reconcile those visitation with "No man hath seen God at any time."

We distinguish between the temporal and the eternal, for no man has, in his flesh, entered into God's realm.

Those raptured will do so in glorified form, not having died.

Quote:
So find where Christ was revealed to these people who the Writer of Hebrews, who also said they received the gospel, said were unbelievers and faithless?

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,

Indicates they did not understand, thus the inquiry.

11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

Seeking to know...the time.

Paul speaks of this time:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


It was not revealed to Old Testament Saints or Prophets.

Not even John understood that which he prophesied:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Matthew 11:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

11 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?

12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

"Now announced...by the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven."

I'm telling you, the Comforter unlocks many conflicts in the Body of Christ.

Think about that..."Take not thy Spirit from me?"

Kind of stands in direct contradiction to the promised Eternal Spirit, doesn't it?

1Thess 5 - "Do not quench the Spirit" -- do not "GRIEVE" the Spirit.

Not the same. King Saul is an example of the Spirit departing from someone. The Old Testament was an external empowering whereas the New Covenant Ministry of the Spirit is...

...eternal indwelling.

AS they did.

Even as we do, sometimes, my friend.

That does not change the fact that the New Birth is the result of the eternal indwelling of God, By this we have a new heart and Spirit, and can walk in His Statutes and keep His Judgments.

But when the born again believer sins, the Spirit of God does not depart from them, because that is what reconciliation is. That which was lost in Adam is restored in the New Birth, which is the process of the indwelling of God.

That is how He saves us:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


One of the first things Peter does, when he sits down to write, is speak of the eternality of salvation through regeneration:


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


And he mentions it twice in the first chapter:


18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


It is simply irrefutable, my friend. As you give this consideration in your studies, keep these things in mind which I have shared with you, and you will see that this is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and the magnitude of the Cross far extends beyond all that God had revealed to the Old Testament Saints, and over-shadows the shadow which we find in the Old Testament.

It should make your heart leap for joy, knowing that God has provided better...

...for us.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

After the cross the sola scriptura model used against Paul was "they studied the SCRIPTURES daily to SEE IF those things spoken to them by Paul -- were SO" Acts 17:11

Well then maybe "some parts" of the OT are still ok for us - but not others?

R.C Sproul may be in trouble on this point as well.

You are still focusing on the Law, and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Law was temporary.

The Gospel is Eternal.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Every reference to "Scripture" in the NT is a reference to the OT -

Not quite accurate:


2 Peter 3:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


2 Timothy 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The arguments about the saved saints of the OT - listed in Heb 11 etc - is not to say that the Gospel events 2000 years ago do not matter.

If it were not your heart would not be goaded to excuse it.

What is done is it is said that Christ's Sacrifice and Resurrection...really did not change anything, for after all...these things took place before.

Understanding the magnitude of Christ's Work is essential to understanding Scripture. Imposing the reception of the promises in the Old Testament, even after it is clearly stated they did not receive those promises, is simply not reasonable.

And my time here is drawing close to an end, so I will just leave you with those things mentioned to think about, Bob, and Lord willing, we will talk again in more detail some day. But there need not be more said than has been said this morning, and it is just my prayer that you will at least give it some consideration, and see if it does not actually clear up some of the conflicts we see in the Body today.

I may check back in, but I have been devoting too much time here and not enough to work, lol, so I am in need of turning my attention back to that.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Every reference to scripture in the NT is a reference to the OT.

Not quite accurate:


2 Peter 3:15-16

King James Version (KJV)

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.


2 Timothy 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:



God bless.

In 2 Peter 3 the term "scripture" refers to the OT.

In 2Tim 3 the "All scripture" is a reference to the OT as we see in the text itself .

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The scriptures that Timothy had as a child did not include one single NT letter because he did not even become a Christian until he was an adult --

The point is not that the NT text is not also scripture - the point is that the NT writers were doing the opposite of what some suggest today - instead of ignoring the OT (and also the Gospel teaching of Christ in the case of some) as if it is not valid scripture for NT saints - it is the ONLY thing they quote in the NT saying it is "scripture".

A more directly contradicting practice could hardly be imagined against the one that supposes that Christians only have 24 books of scripture that applies to Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The arguments about the saved saints of the OT - listed in Heb 11 etc - is not to say that the Gospel events 2000 years ago do not matter. Rather it is that Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" and God regards those things that do not YET exist as though they did.

Salvation in the OT was from the gospel benefit of events in the life of Christ. God is not limited by time in applying them.

Translated to heaven, taken to heaven - means what it says.

Your arguments about truth unfolding over time are not being disputed. The more light available the more light we are responsible for accepting or denying. But there is no such thing in the Bible as not saved because the story is not complete 'enough yet so wait a few thousand years to get saved'. The Bible describes God as forgiving sins, saving, giving people His Holy Spirit, being the Savior of the world in BOTH OT and NT -- And the Gospel is preached BOTH in OT and NT according to even the NT text. This is irrefutable.

The description of OT saints in the Bible as "perfect", "righteous", "walked with God" - pursuing "righteousness that is by faith" is NOT a description of the Romans 3 lost state of man apart from being born again. Rather it can only happen via the ONE Gospel solution that includes the New Birth.

If it were not your heart would not be goaded to excuse it.

What is done is it is said that Christ's Sacrifice and Resurrection...really did not change anything, for after all...these things took place before.

I do not follow the logic that says that IF God be not limited by time as a man then anything that happens in time does not matter.

The Bible makes the opposite point to that in Romans 4.

And Romans 4 is not before the cross.

God not being limited by time does nothing to decrease Christ.

Understanding the magnitude of Christ's Work is essential to understanding Scripture. Imposing the reception of the promises in the Old Testament, even after it is clearly stated they did not receive those promises, is simply not reasonable.

IF no Gospel promise was there in the OT then they had "NOT the Gospel" -- not 'The SAME Gospel" but rather NO Gospel.

If you imagine some way for OT saints to be saved and other OT people to be lost - without OUR Gospel -then you have imagined "another gospel" -- by definition. No way around it.

PRIOR to the NT cross - Christ said "THIS GOSPEL of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world and THEN shall the end come". What "Gospel" did they have before the cross when in your model - even the disciples were not saved??

No text says that the OT saints were lost.

No text says the OT saints did not have righteousness by Faith, full acceptance with God, and the pure Gospel that we have.

Rather the NT texts directly refute such speculation.

All of our doctrines must stand "sola scriptura" and that means we cannot chop off 43 books of our 66 books of scripture any more than NT saints were allowed to do that in Acts 17:11.

It simply is not "sola scriptura" testing to downsize the Bible or to argue that it does not honor Christ to admit to His claims to be Savior even in the OT and to His claim of being "the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the World".



in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Moses and Elijah in glorified form with Christ transfigured in Matt 17?

Or Christ insisting pre-cross that any Bible teaching in Israel should already know about the new Birth and salvation in John 3?

or "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7?

Or "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

or "RESTORE to me the joy of salvation and take not Thy Holy Spirit From ME" Ps 51

or ALL the saints of the OT as in Heb 11???

or "I put My SPIRIT within you"?

Because people here think there is "another gospel" preached in the OT by God?

Christ as eternal God was glorified from all eternity past.

In John 17 Christ said that He was returning to the Father to the glory that he HAD with the Father before His birth.

So the text in Matt 17 is correct - Moses and Elijah are in the same form as Christ - fully glorified - having glorified bodies --

Matt 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.


Peter is so floored by what he sees he wants to make THREE memorials - three tabernacles.



The disciples are face-down in the dirt - but Moses and Elijah are in glorified form speaking with Christ who is himself fully transfigured in glorified form.


These are not lost or unconverted or super-holy-but-not-born-again lost persons


[FONT=&quot]Gal 1:6-11 There has been "only ONE Gospel" in both OT and NT - hint being born again is a key part of that Gospel. Heb 4:2 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Spirit filled men of the OT "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" 1Pet 1:11.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 51:11 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]take not your Holy Spirit from me[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 11:19-20 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A New heart" a "new Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" put within.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 63:10 Israel [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieved God's "Holy Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]".[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 51:7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In their heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was written the Law of God -[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 37:31 - "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Law of God IS IN his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Deut 6:6 God's Word "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in your heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 2:28-29 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]

Hence all the OT saints and even "Righteousness which is by faith" in Heb 11 regarding those OT saints.

"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8.

The OT gospel saved - born-again, righeousness by faith and Moses and Elijah fully glorified in Matt 17 - with Christ so much so that Peter wants to make THREE tabernacles -- though face down in the dirt before them.



"Abraham SAW My DAY and was glad" John 8.

Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel"
Gal 3:7 THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

Same book, same Author, same subject.


It is which makes Him all that much more present and in-person God in the OT

"Seeking of whom the SPIRIT OF CHRIST WITHIN THEM was speaking"


1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

.

"The Gospel was preached to US JUST as it was to THEM Also" Heb 4:2

We know it does, because Scripture makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a mystery, a previously unrevealed truth.

David did not know.

The scripture does not say they did not have the Gospel - rather that there are mysteries in the Gospel -- such as the Gospel going to the Gentiles that they did not know. But as for the Gospel preached in the OT -- Gal 3:7, Heb 4:2 insist that this is fact.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

One thing I would point out is that this is not a difference between SDAs and Baptists - this issue of the OT saints being born-again saved believers is held by a number of Baptists not the least of which - Chuck Swindoll, C.H. Spurgeon, and Stanley and others.

Few of them have argued for a purgatory like holding place where the lost get "another chance" to be saved after they die.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Marooncat79]

Must we observe to keep the 10 commandments {including Gods sabbath day} in order to be saved?

It is impossible for anyone to be completely obedient to the 10 commandments even christians and yes God knew/knows that. If we could as unbelievers then there would be no need for Christ. If we can as believers then we would not need to repent daily of out sins. See the Lords prayer in Matthew and I John 2:19. The use of the law for the believer is to drive us to Christ

 

[BobRyan]

Rev 14:12 the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus".

1 John 5:1-5 by this IS the Love of God - that we KEEP His Commandments.

John 14:15 "IF You Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Ex 20 "Love Me and KEEP My commandments"

Rom 8:4-9 the lost are unnable to submit to the Law of God - but not so with the saved.

Romans 6 you are slaves of the one that you actually obey -either of sin resulting in death - or servants of obedience/righteousness.