Can the .....

[McCree79]

In the incident with Hezekiah, there is an absolute conundrum for the fatalist/determinist view.

God told Hezekiah through Isaiah ----> "You Will Die and Not Live"
Hezekiah prayed, God relented.

If we hold that God knew Hezekiah would pray, only making it appear that God reacted, then we must conclude that God lied. Why?

Because that would mean God made an emphatic statement, knowing full well that He was not going to see it through.


btw, I do believe God knows the end from the beginning, which our finite minds are incapable of processing in a scenario like this one


.

So you are saying God didn't know????

God said he would die, but he didn't. Regardless of your view, neither makes God a liar. I don't see God changing his mind here. Like DHK said, "in man's terms"(paraphrase) God changed his mind. God isn't a man and doesn't operate on our level, but some truth can be held, to his(DHK) statement in regards to a change of direction in God's proclamation.

 

[Van]

Do contingent covenant ring a bell?

Man-made doctrines that do not fit with all scripture as suspect. When a doctrine requires passage after passage (where God makes contingent covenants) to be declared null and void, it is time to broadcast, Folks, we have a problem.

 

[JamesL]

So you are saying God didn't know????

If you can't read and comprehend any better than that, you're really unfit for serious discussion.

Read my statement which started "btw"

Then come back and try again



.

 

[Van]

It will be difficult to support from scripture that God knows the end from the beginning. I think it reads, God declares the end from the beginning, which supports that God knows what He has declared.

But to return to the actual issue. God makes contingent covenants. He says, if you repent, I will relent. What the exhaustive determinists must do is say God knew when He said "if" that they would or would not repent. Therefore God indicates two possible outcomes are possible. But He does not actually mean it, He knows what will happen. And so it goes, either exhaustive determinism is mistaken or God does not mean what He says.

 

[McCree79]

If you can't read and comprehend any better than that, you're really unfit for serious discussion.

Read my statement which started "btw"

Then come back and try again



.

I missed your last paragraph, which I apologize for.

*I use my phone on this forum. My keyboard blocks the end of the posts. If I don't minimize, I can't see everything

 

[McCree79]

It will be difficult to support from scripture that God knows the end from the beginning. I think it reads, God declares the end from the beginning, which supports that God knows what He has declared.

But to return to the actual issue. God makes contingent covenants. He says, if you repent, I will relent. What the exhaustive determinists must do is say God knew when He said "if" that they would or would not repent. Therefore God indicates two possible outcomes are possible. But He does not actually mean it, He knows what will happen. And so it goes, either exhaustive determinism is mistaken or God does not mean what He says.

Who is talking exhaustive determinism?
I have never heard this term, I assume you mean God determines every event by the use of this term?

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Mal.3:6 "I change not," simply speaks of the Lord's immutability.

I would not speak of it as "simply". Immutability when it comes to God who is beyond any of us is quite awesome and overwhelming.

That is one attribute out of hundreds of attributes of the Lord.

Okay:laugh:

Why do you fixate on just one attribute.

Do you ever pay attention to the OP on any thread, or do you just push your foul agenda? The OP asks....

[ Can the ..... immutable God ever change His will for an individual's life??]

This verse seems to answer that question quite directly, don't you think?:laugh:

What about mercy? Does the Lord show mercy?

That is not dealing with the OP...... but if you understood the verse it is all about "mercy".

2Ki 20:1 In those days was Hezekiah sick unto death. And the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz came to him, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Set thine house in order; for thou shalt die, and not live.
2Ki 20:2 Then he turned his face to the wall, and prayed unto the LORD, saying,
2Ki 20:3 I beseech thee, O LORD, remember now how I have walked before thee in truth and with a perfect heart, and have done that which is good in thy sight. And Hezekiah wept sore.
2Ki 20:4 And it came to pass, afore Isaiah was gone out into the middle court, that the word of the LORD came to him, saying,
2Ki 20:5 Turn again, and tell Hezekiah the captain of my people, Thus saith the LORD, the God of David thy father, I have heard thy prayer, I have seen thy tears: behold, I will heal thee: on the third day thou shalt go up unto the house of the LORD.
2Ki 20:6 And I will add unto thy days fifteen years; and I will deliver thee and this city out of the hand of the king of Assyria; and I will defend this city for mine own sake, and for my servant David's sake.
2Ki 20:7 And Isaiah said, Take a lump of figs. And they took and laid it on the boil, and he recovered.

I am sure you are acquainted with the story here.
Did God change his mind? He told Hezekiah he was going to die, but then Hezekiah prayed. God answered his prayer, healed him, and allowed him to live fifteen more years. Did God change his mind?

[/QUOTE]


No....God never has to change His mind. :thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

Who is talking exhaustive determinism?
I have never heard this term, I assume you mean God determines every event by the use of this term?

Van and others here do not understand the doctrines of God's absolute sovereign grace. They instead describe a caricature which is theologically "fatalism", which no biblical Cal believes.
They cannot answer the Cals biblically so they beat up the strawman instead:laugh::laugh:......The strawman does not resist them:thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

No....God never has to change His mind. :thumbs:

I agree. "Go never "has to" change His mind.
He never has to sleep, work, eat, study, etc. He doesn't "have to" do any such thing. Does he?
But that is not the OP.
The OP says:

.... immutable God ever change His will for an individual's life??

It is not what God "has to" do, but rather what God does do.
Thus the question should more accurately be put, "Does God, who is immutable, ever change his mind toward an individual"?

From a human perspective the answer is, "Yes, He does."

If you answer in the negative, and say that he does not on the premise that He does not change, then you also contradict his promises and must conclude "God does not and will not answer prayer."
Man looks upon God and considers God from a human perspective.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

 

[Iconoclast]

Who is talking exhaustive determinism?
I have never heard this term, I assume you mean God determines every event by the use of this term?

Mc79...after reading the misguided posts here...cleanse your mind by reading this instead...:wavey::wavey:

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_07.htm

First, God is immutable in His essence. His nature and being are infinite, and so, subject to no mutations. There never was a time when He was not; there never will come a time when He shall cease to be. God has neither evolved, grown, nor improved. All that He is today, He has ever been, and ever will be. "I am the Lord, I change not" (Mal. 3:6) is His own unqualified affirmation. He cannot change for the better, for He is already perfect; and being perfect, He cannot change for the worse. Altogether unaffected by anything outside Himself, improvement or deterioration is impossible. He is perpetually the same. He only can say, "I am that I am" (Ex. 3:14). He is altogether uninfluenced by the flight of time. There is no wrinkle upon the brow of eternity. Therefore His power can never diminish nor His glory ever fade.

Secondly, God is immutable in His attributes. Whatever the attributes of God were before the universe was called into existence, they are precisely the same now, and will remain so forever. Necessarily so; for they are the very perfections, the essential qualities of His being. Semper idem (always the same) is written across every one of them. His power is unabated, His wisdom undiminished, His holiness unsullied. The attributes of God can no more change than Deity can cease to be. His veracity is immutable, for His Word is "forever settled in heaven" (Ps. 119:89). His love is eternal: "I have loved thee with an everlasting love" (Jer. 31:3) and "Having loved His own which were in the world, He loved them unto the end" (John 13:1). His mercy ceases not, for it is "everlasting" (Ps. 100:5).

Thirdly, God is immutable in His counsel. His will never varies. Perhaps some are ready to object that we ought to read the following: "And it repented the Lord that He had made man" (Gen. 6:6). Our first reply is, Then do the Scriptures contradict themselves? No, that cannot be. Numbers 23:19 is plain enough: "God is not a man, that He should lie; neither the son of man, that He should repent." So also in 1 Samuel 15:19, "The strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for He is not a man, that He should repent." The explanation is very simple. When speaking of Himself. God frequently accommodates His language to our limited capacities. He describes Himself as clothed with bodily members, as eyes, ears, hands, etc. He speaks of Himself as "waking" (Ps. 78:65), as "rising early" (Jer. 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps. When He institutes a change in His dealings with men, He describes His course of conduct as "repenting."

 

[McCree79]

Mc79...after reading the misguided posts here...cleanse your mind by reading this instead...:wavey::wavey:

http://www.pbministries.org/books/pink/Attributes/attrib_07.htm

Very good article. I am only half way through it. I will finish. I have to quit reading. My eyes are having a hard time focusing and my brain is fried. Too much reading today. Anabaptist History.....Rebel will be so proud

I like these 2 parts so far.

"When speaking of Himself. God frequently accommodates His language to our limited capacities. He describes Himself as clothed with bodily members, as eyes, ears, hands, etc. He speaks of Himself as "waking" (Ps. 78:65), as "rising early" (Jer. 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps. When He institutes a change in His dealings with men, He describes His course of conduct as "repenting." "

"One of two things causes a man to change his mind and reverse his plans: want of foresight to anticipate everything, or lack of power to execute them. But as God is both omniscient and omnipotent there is never any need for Him to revise His decrees."

 

[Iconoclast]

Very good article. I am only half way through it. I will finish. I have to quit reading. My eyes are having a hard time focusing and my brain is fried. Too much reading today. Anabaptist History.....Rebel will be so proud

I like these 2 parts so far.

"When speaking of Himself. God frequently accommodates His language to our limited capacities. He describes Himself as clothed with bodily members, as eyes, ears, hands, etc. He speaks of Himself as "waking" (Ps. 78:65), as "rising early" (Jer. 7:13); yet He neither slumbers nor sleeps. When He institutes a change in His dealings with men, He describes His course of conduct as "repenting." "

"One of two things causes a man to change his mind and reverse his plans: want of foresight to anticipate everything, or lack of power to execute them. But as God is both omniscient and omnipotent there is never any need for Him to revise His decrees."

No rush brother....it is refreshing to see so much truth without the others ripping it down...the whole book is a keeper.....

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[SovereignGrace]

From our perspective, it appears that God does change His mind. Take the account in Jonah and Isaiah 38. God knows the end from the beginning and the beginning from the end, because He has declared them.


The account of Hezekiah was God's way of causing Hezekiah to repent. But God knew he would all along. God works through means.

 

[InTheLight]

I'm hearing, "from our perspective" and "God takes on human attributes" and other excuses so people can cling to their Calvinist determinism.

Is the Bible the Word of God or not? Isn't every thing in the Bible profitable for doctrine and reproof?

So here's a passage that CLEARLY says that God heard Hezekiah's prayer and changed His mind yet almost everyone in this thread is having a conniption fit trying to make the verses say something else.

The lesson is that God does answer prayer. There are many, many verses that state this. Hezekiah's experience confirms It.

John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 5:4-15. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So why do people want to add, "but" and "except" and "it really means" when it comes to Isaiah 38? Pretty sure the passage reads exactly how God wants it to read and it doesn't need a bunch of qualifying statements surrounding it!

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'm hearing, "from our perspective" and "God takes on human attributes" and other excuses so people can cling to their Calvinist determinism.

Is the Bible the Word of God or not? Isn't every thing in the Bible profitable for doctrine and reproof?

So here's a passage that CLEARLY says that God heard Hezekiah's prayer and changed His mind yet almost everyone in this thread is having a conniption fit trying to make the verses say something else.

The lesson is that God does answer prayer. There are many, many verses that state this. Hezekiah's experience confirms It.

John 16:24 Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

John 14:14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

John 5:4-15. This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

So why do people want to add, "but" and "except" and "it really means" when it comes to Isaiah 38? Pretty sure the passage reads exactly how God wants it to read and it doesn't need a bunch of qualifying statements surrounding it!

I had Psychology 101 in college, and during that semester, we studied that when two individuals conversed with each other, the one with the highest IQ had to come down to the level of the one with the lesser IQ. It's like kids, for instance. You start out with basic '1+1=2' and not 'xy+2z=172'. God has to come down to our level if we are to understand what He is conveying through His word. We do not have God's 'IQ', so it's impossible to learn about Him at His level. He has/had to come down to our level of IQ.


God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah what He was going to do. Hezekiah repented and God relented. But God knew all along what Hezekiah would do, and by those means, He caused Hezekiah to repent. Same with Ninevah. God knew they would repent at the proclamation of Jonah, and they did. But God knew all along what they would do. God used those means to accomplish His sovereign will.

 

[JamesL]

God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah what He was going to do. Hezekiah repented and God relented. But God knew all along what Hezekiah would do, and by those means, He caused Hezekiah to repent. Same with Ninevah. God knew they would repent at the proclamation of Jonah, and they did. But God knew all along what they would do. God used those means to accomplish His sovereign will.

Is it fair to say that God lied when He made an emphatic, unqualified statement through the prophet ?

Hezekiah was told "You Will Die, and not live"

God spoke it, knowing full well it was false?

 

[McCree79]

Is it fair to say that God lied when He made an emphatic, unqualified statement through the prophet ?

Hezekiah was told "You Will Die, and not live"

God spoke it, knowing full well it was false?

It wasn't a false statement. Without repentance Hezekiah would have died. God knew the affliction would bring him to repentance. If God wanted to strike him dead, there would have been no warning. It would have been like the death of Herod Agrippa. Opportunities for repentance aren't to change God's mind, but ours.

 

[InTheLight]

God told Isaiah to tell Hezekiah what He was going to do. Hezekiah repented and God relented. But God knew all along what Hezekiah would do, and by those means, He caused Hezekiah to repent. Same with Ninevah. God knew they would repent at the proclamation of Jonah, and they did. But God knew all along what they would do. God used those means to accomplish His sovereign will.

So why doesn't the Bible say something like, "And so the Lord added 15 years onto Hezehiah's life because He knew Hezekiah would pray for mercy." ?

Does the Bible say what God intended or are we supposed to figure out what is really being said?

This kind of contortion to get God's Word to fit into a particular systematic theology is erroneous.

 

[Van]

I find it hard to accept McCree79, that you do not know what exhaustive determinism is? It is Calvinism's God predestines whatsoever comes to pass. Nothing happens because of the autonomous choices of people, or by chance circumstance. Call it "Closed Theism."

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Cognitive Dissonance anybody?

God ordains, predestines and causes our each and every sin, yet is not the author of sin, nor controlling our will. Yep, got it!!!!!!

 

[InTheLight]

God ordains, predestines and causes our each and every sin, yet is not the author of sin, nor controlling our will. Yep, got it!!!!!!

Calvinist: "It is a mystery."

(I am wondering why none of them has invoked "it's a mystery" for this passage from Isaiah.)