Calvin vs Satan

[vooks]

There are some aspects of Calvinism that make little to no sense to me and I need your help.

On Unconditional Election (Predestination), the idea that God has predetermined the saved guys

Look at this verse.
1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

Why should the predestined care for the devil, he is totally harmless against them. And why would God unleash the devil on the un-predestined or the lost, isn't it sort of redundant deceiving the already eternally deceived?

The other question is on knowledge of predestination. Can a living man know that he is predestined or not? And if NO, would lack of that information be equal to no assurance of salvation?

 

[Zenas]

There are some aspects of Calvinism that make little to no sense to me and I need your help.

On Unconditional Election (Predestination), the idea that God has predetermined the saved guys

Look at this verse.
1 Peter 5:8 (KJV)
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour

Why should the predestined care for the devil, he is totally harmless against them. And why would God unleash the devil on the un-predestined or the lost, isn't it sort of redundant deceiving the already eternally deceived?

The other question is on knowledge of predestination. Can a living man know that he is predestined or not? And if NO, would lack of that information be equal to no assurance of salvation?

The answer to your last question is easy. Every single one of them (Calvinists) knows he is predestined for salvation. No exceptions. If you don't think so, just ask as many of them as you can find and you will always get the same answer.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The answer to your last question is easy. Every single one of them (Calvinists) knows he is predestined for salvation. No exceptions. If you don't think so, just ask as many of them as you can find and you will always get the same answer.

Why ask a Calvinist when you could consult scripture?

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

 

[vooks]

The answer to your last question is easy. Every single one of them (Calvinists) knows he is predestined for salvation. No exceptions. If you don't think so, just ask as many of them as you can find and you will always get the same answer.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Circular reasoning.
All born again are predestined, some predestined are yet to be born again but they will, all non-predestined will never be born again, and if they are born again, it's all fakery. And if the predestined backslide, it's all temporal

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Circular reasoning.
All born again are predestined, some predestined are yet to be born again but they will, all non-predestined will never be born again, and if they are born again, it's all fakery. And if the predestined backslide, it's all temporal

You really have confused the doçtrines of election and predesrination. If you still want to continue to question them then I advise you to add scripture to your dialog to make your point.

 

[vooks]

You really have confused the doçtrines of election and predesrination. If you still want to continue to question them then I advise you to add scripture to your dialog to make your point.

Let's deal with Satan. Why is he a threat to the Elect?

And now that you brought it up, what is the difference. Between UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION and PREDESTINATION in Calvinism? Just quick definitions, scriptures will follow

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Let's deal with Satan. Why is he a threat to the Elect?

I do not understand the question....please either rephrase or embellish or do both.

And then after you do that, could you also explain to me where you think salvation begins? Just want to see if we are on the same page....actually in the same ballpark. And if you would, please back it up with scripture.

 

[plain_n_simple]

"Calvin vs Satan"

They are are one in the same. Satan guided John Calvin to punish those who opposed him with death. You will know them by their fruits. Good fruit cannot come from a bad tree.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Why ask a Calvinist when you could consult scripture?

Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Ephesians 1:3-6 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."

Ephesians 1:11-12 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Thank you! Amen! Praise God!

Now here is the answer to all questions asked in the OP . . . Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

It is not about the elect, the conflict between sin and them. Sin and the wicked and the devil and all evil seek occasion against God's Son and his image in the sight of all. If satan and his cohorts could cause God's elect to wonder off from Him and transgress against Him, they reckon they have marred the image of God's Son. And that only will make them happy. They are not interested about you or me. The elect are dispensable for evil, like ammunition fired at the Fortress and Help in the time of trouble of the elect. If only Christ's image could be tarnished, satan and the wicked all together would rejoice . . . and every elect, will repent and regret and suffer for the image of his Master and Saviour so marred.

 

[Rippon]

"Calvin vs Satan"

From what you say below it looks like you and Rebel could be best Buds.

They are are one in the same.

How devilish of you.

Satan guided John Calvin to punish those who opposed him with death.

John Calvin did not punish anyone. He did not have the authority to arrest, try, convict, sentence, torture, persecute or anything you want to to come up with. You need to learn to speak the truth. Avail yourself of material of honest Church History scholars.

I have quoted over two dozen such honest scholars to set the record straight regarding the lies about John Calvin. But if you want to blather on anyway, it will demonstrate that you have no affinity with the truth.

 

[plain_n_simple]

"I have quoted over two dozen such honest scholars to set the record straight regarding the lies about John Calvin."

Defending a murderer and his cult does not make your scholars honest, but if you want to blather on anyway, it will demonstrate that you have no affinity with the truth.

 

[Rippon]

"I have quoted over two dozen such honest scholars to set the record straight regarding the lies about John Calvin."

That's right; indeed I have. Men such as :

Alister McGrath : "The image of Calvin as 'dictator of Geneva' bears no relation to the known facts of history."

Basil Hall : "...the records of Geneva show him plainly to have have been the servant of its Council which on many occasions rejected out of hand Calvin's wishes..."

J. Packer : "Yet all serious Calvin-scholars now know that the Calvin of legend --the slobbering ogre, the egotistical fanatic, the doctrinaire misanthrope, the inhuman dictator with a devilish god --is a figure of fancy --not fact."

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's right; indeed I have. Men such as :

Alister McGrath : "The image of Calvin as 'dictator of Geneva' bears no relation to the known facts of history."

Basil Hall : "...the records of Geneva show him plainly to have have been the servant of its Council which on many occasions rejected out of hand Calvin's wishes..."

J. Packer : "Yet all serious Calvin-scholars now know that the Calvin of legend --the slobbering ogre, the egotistical fanatic, the doctrinaire misanthrope, the inhuman dictator with a devilish god --is a figure of fancy --not fact."

Besides, if you were to study the case in question and even read historical evidence from secular historians, you will find that Calvin had no authority to put anyone on trial much less execute anyone in Geneva. Now could he have influenced a trial and did he ? That could be up for a good debate.

 

[Jerome]

What's good for the goose. . .Calvin attemping to link his opponents to Satan:


From the preface of Beza and Calvin's Bible de Genève:

"Satan has found as many translators as there are frivolous and impudent minds; and he will probably find even more, unless God give them pause before it is too late. If the reader asks me for an example, let me refer to Sebastian Castellio's translation of the Bible. . . . We therefore regard it as a conscientious duty to break the silence we have hitherto kept, and to warn all Christians against this man, the chosen of Satan."


From Calvin's Sermons sur l'Epitre aux Corinthiens:

"Nous en verrons d'aucuns si frenetiques, non pas seulement en la religion, mais pour monstrer par tout qu'ils ont une nature monstrueuse, qu'ils diront que le soliel ne se bouge, et que c'est la terre qui se remue et qu'elle tourne. Quand nous voyons de tels esprits, il faut bien dire que le diable les ait possedez, et que Dieu nous les propose comme des miroirs, pour nous faire demeurer en sa crainte."

[Those who say that the earth moves round, rather than the sun, are demon-possessed]

 

[Rebel]

Besides, if you were to study the case in question and even read historical evidence from secular historians, you will find that Calvin had no authority to put anyone on trial much less execute anyone in Geneva. Now could he have influenced a trial and did he ? That could be up for a good debate.

That is just not true. That is spin. You are better than that.

 

[plain_n_simple]

"Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies? Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster." (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. VIII, pp. 690, 691)

Calvin was a bad tree.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That is just not true. That is spin. You are better than that.

I'm sorry you feel that way but these are the books Ive read on the subject. Will Durant, in his Civilization Series, does not condemn Calvin.....in fact, Durand personally dislikes the guy but that was his interpretation.

Note that I'm not justifying Calvin nor am I condoning him & his ilk....from my perspective they all overacted, as did Luther & the RCC....but it was a time of violence & eliminating ones perceived opponents. A very sad state for people who claimed the blood of Christ.

 

[Rippon]

John Calvin did not punish anyone. He did not have the authority to arrest, try, convict, sentence, torture, persecute or anything you want to to come up with. You need to learn to speak the truth. Avail yourself of material of honest Church History scholars.

I have quoted over two dozen such honest scholars to set the record straight regarding the lies about John Calvin.

I would appreciate it if those who continually lie about the authority John Calvin had in Geneva to quote reputable Calvin scholars. Come up with a list of quotes from two dozen honest Church Historians to refute my sources. The time is ticking.

 

[BobRyan]

"Servetus suffered the penalty due to his heresies, but was it by my will? Certainly his arrogance destroyed him not less than his impiety. And what crime was it of mine if our Council, at my exhortation, indeed, but in conformity with the opinion of several Churches, took vengeance on his execrable blasphemies? Let Baudouin abuse me as long as he will, provided that, by the judgment of Melanchthon, posterity owes me a debt of gratitude for having purged the Church of so pernicious a monster." (Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol. VIII, pp. 690, 691)

Calvin was a bad tree.

Paul merely "held the coats" of those that stoned Stephen - and still he admitted to his complicity in the whole affair.

Maybe Calvin was predestined to ignore the deed.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rebel]

I'm sorry you feel that way but these are the books Ive read on the subject. Will Durant, in his Civilization Series, does not condemn Calvin.....in fact, Durand personally dislikes the guy but that was his interpretation.

Note that I'm not justifying Calvin nor am I condoning him & his ilk....from my perspective they all overacted, as did Luther & the RCC....but it was a time of violence & eliminating ones perceived opponents. A very sad state for people who claimed the blood of Christ.

Yes, and everybody did that except the Anabaptists. I've continually pointed that out.