Power to choose

[Van]

Folks, the mischaracterization continues unabated.

1) Did any say people have the ability to self generate? Nope, so obfuscation on display.
2) The issue of the OP was the claim people have no ability to seek God and trust fully in Christ. That claim has been shown to be mistaken.

a) Christ spoke in parables to preclude some folks hearing and understanding the gospel (Matthew 13).
b) God hardened hearts (Romans 11) to preclude unbelieving Jews from accepting the gospel.
c) Unregenerate men were in the process of entering heaven (Matthew 23:13) and therefore were seeking God effectively.​

 

[DHK]

This thread is NOT on Calvinism.

Let us all please keep it on the issue of the OP.

The thread is upon the notion that the unregenerate can self generate and therefore have the ability to express freedom of will and choice to accept or reject elements of either realm - darkness or light.

According to many (Calvinism), no one can have the freedom to choose unless they have been regenerated first. That leaves the door open to having many regenerated but unsaved people on this earth. I suppose these regenerated people would have the freedom to choose, now that they supposedly have faith.

From the opening post and subsequent posts, it was shown that such freedom does not exist.

That conclusion is based on certain biased premises such as "Total Inability," and "Irresistible Grace," principles not taught in the Bible.

One who turns from the light does not have any ability, much less any desire, to have light shining upon them.

What about those who choose NOT to turn from the light. That is indicated in Romans 1:20; 2:14,15, and most explicitly in the life of Cornelius who was neither regenerated nor saved until Peter came and preached the gospel unto him. That was the very reason why God told him to go to Cornelius's house in the first place. He responded to the light that was given him.

Therefore, the person of darkness is shackled to the realm of darkness and may only choose from that offered by darkness. All offerings, though they may seem "good gifts" and be called "good gifts" will ultimately decay, be discarded, and left in ruin.

A false conclusion based on a false premise.

In the Spiritual, one who has no desire to have light shine upon them, is shackled by a darkened heart and lacks understanding of the mind, has no freedom of choice other than what seems "right in their own eyes."

Many, but not "no one." Cornelius does not fit into the category of "no one."
In the Day of Judgment "there will be no excuse" (Rom.1:20) for all the world. Therefore they have enough light to respond positively to the light given them. The Bible doesn't teach that a person "cannot or does not have the ability to understand..."

I will address two matters, briefly that were posted.

It was offered in a post that these three responded without regeneration:

"The Philippian jailer responded.
The Ethiopian Eunuch responded.
The thief on the cross responded."
​

There is not room in this post, but the case has been made in other threads that each of these had demonstrated the lack of turning from the light.

The first two is easy to be seen in Scriptures, because the verses specifically state the manner of living and devotion - the response to light given that showed a lack of turning, but embracing.

They responded to the light that was given. Every person, OT and NT have that responsibility. That is what Rom.1:20 indicates. With the eunuch he responded because he understood the scriptures that Philip preached to him.
Why was he saved?
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God."
Faith comes through the Word of God, not through regeneration.
He had the ability to put his faith in Christ or "the power to choose Christ," because he had heard the gospel and understood it. God did not force him to believe through "regeneration."

The thief on the cross has no such history or background given in Scriptures. However, it cannot be assumed that just because he admittedly deserved to die on the cross, he had turned from the light. In fact, the very words "We deserve..." shows that he had no desire to cover his sin, and was comprehending the light. These two elementary facts demonstrate that the thief was most certainly given the "right to become" a believer.

What of the other thief?

The scene of the cross is another example of those who turn from the light and one who does not turn from the light.

The question of "regeneration" is not specific to this thread but is a bit related to the discussion.

The term regeneration is absolutely germane to this thread, and very specific to the OP, as it is regeneration (according to the Calvinist) that gives the individual "the power to choose."

Regeneration is a theological term that applies only to those from Pentecost onward. The thief lived before Pentecost. The Spirit did not regenerate him. He simply believed and was saved. That is all. Salvation was solely by faith and faith alone as the Scriptures teach. It was impossible for him to have what the Calvinist teach, a "regenerated faith," or a saving faith that comes through the power of regeneration.

 

[agedman]

Folks, the mischaracterization continues unabated.

1) Did any say people have the ability to self generate? Nope, so obfuscation on display.
2) The issue of the OP was the claim people have no ability to seek God and trust fully in Christ. That claim has been shown to be mistaken.

a) Christ spoke in parables to preclude some folks hearing and understanding the gospel (Matthew 13).
b) God hardened hearts (Romans 11) to preclude unbelieving Jews from accepting the gospel.
c) Unregenerate men were in the process of entering heaven (Matthew 23:13) and therefore were seeking God effectively.​

Van,

Each of these verses have been dealt with thoroughly in other threads and in this thread.

You were wrong in your application then which brought others out against the statements, and you are obviously continuing the entrenchment in your error, as demonstrated by the quote above.

"self - generate" is part of the thinking that you espouse when you say that heathen can "seek God and trust fully in Christ."

There is not a single Scripture that you have produced to show such happening and the ability of such to happen.

In EVERY Scripture you have given as some proof, the actual application has shown there is no foundation for your statements.

Yet, you deny the truth of the Scriptures for your own convenient thinking, and blame the error upon others lack of application. Even in this thread.

Here is a short list of the scenes you attempted to use (not in this thread but others, too) to support your scheme:

Call by Joshua to the Israelites
Philippian jailer (which DHk also attempted)
Ethiopian Eunuch (which DHK also attempted)
Thief on the cross (which DHK also attempted)

The point being, that in EVERY case it has been proved BY SCRIPTURES to not support your view.

Here is a bit of a project for you. Prove this passage doesn't really mean what it states.

19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
​

See that last part? See the progression from practice to salvation?

Look at the examples you (and DHK) have given.

Except for Joshua, each person was "practicing the truth" and came into the light. EVERY ONE OF THEM!!!! This is consistent with John 1 were God gives those who do not turn from the light the "right to become" His own.

What was Joshua's exception?

The folks didn't "practice the truth" after Joshua died and they did what was "right in their own eyes." They did not come into the light!!!

So, take that passage in John 3, and prove it is wrong, mistaken, and John was misquoting the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Prove that heathen who hate light can of their own self generated will and choice come into the light.

Or, you could revise your view.

 

[agedman]

According to many (Calvinism), no one can have the freedom to choose unless they have been regenerated first. That leaves the door open to having many regenerated but unsaved people on this earth. I suppose these regenerated people would have the freedom to choose, now that they supposedly have faith.


That conclusion is based on certain biased premises such as "Total Inability," and "Irresistible Grace," principles not taught in the Bible.

The OP and subsequent posts showed by basic logic and Scriptures the inability.

Rather than taking an issue with the posts, your disapproval of a view you assigned to the posts is your rebuttal.

What about those who choose NOT to turn from the light. That is indicated in Romans 1:20; 2:14,15, and most explicitly in the life of Cornelius who was neither regenerated nor saved until Peter came and preached the gospel unto him. That was the very reason why God told him to go to Cornelius's house in the first place. He responded to the light that was given him.

Again, look at the Cornelius in comparison to John 1. Cornelius was devout, that is he conducted his living and life from the light of God given him. As a result (according to John 1) God gave Cornelius the right to become a believer and sent Peter to present the Gospel.

Your argument fails to show that what I posted was in error.

A false conclusion based on a false premise.

And you have all wisdom and knowledge to know that the premise is false? It was based upon the logic and Scriptures I presented not just in the OP but in subsequent posts.

Many, but not "no one." Cornelius does not fit into the category of "no one."

Already dealt with Cornelius. I won't repeat myself. You and Van are mistaken when you don't see that ONLY those who dwell, embrace, receive... the light are given the right (empowered, power (KJV) to become the believers. The history of Cornelius given in Scriptures show he was not turning away from the light.

In the Day of Judgment "there will be no excuse" (Rom.1:20) for all the world. Therefore they have enough light to respond positively to the light given them. The Bible doesn't teach that a person "cannot or does not have the ability to understand..."

In this you are wrong.

The Scriptures do very clearly teach that the minds and hearts of the heathen are darkened, that they do not understand and not only reject the light, hate the light, but hate all who remain in the light. John 8 clearly shows this:

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
​

... The term regeneration is absolutely germane to this thread, and very specific to the OP, as it is regeneration (according to the Calvinist) that gives the individual "the power to choose."

Don't much care what "Calvinist"'s believe about regeneration.

Regeneration is a theological term that applies only to those from Pentecost onward. The thief lived before Pentecost. The Spirit did not regenerate him. He simply believed and was saved. That is all. Salvation was solely by faith and faith alone as the Scriptures teach. It was impossible for him to have what the Calvinist teach, a "regenerated faith," or a saving faith that comes through the power of regeneration.

Again, it matters very little what Calvinists teach - THIS thread is NOT about what Calvinists teach or don't teach.

The thief did not turn from the light, and he was saved. That is what John 1 teaches is the result of not turning from the light. Those that do turn from the light are not given the right to become believers. That is what John 1 teaches.

The "process" of taking one who has not turned from the light into that of believer is not part of this thread. So, a discussion of "regeneration" doesn't belong here, UNLESS one appoints the "right" or "power" given by God as the point of "generation." (again, I am not certain "re" has much stake in the matter)

 

[DHK]

The OP and subsequent posts showed by basic logic and Scriptures the inability.

Rather than taking an issue with the posts, your disapproval of a view you assigned to the posts is your rebuttal.

I read the OP and a few posts made after that. However we are on page 15. I admit I have not read all 15 pages. The OP does not demonstrate Total Inability. I agree that the unsaved man is born into the family of the devil, and thus must be born into the family of God. But John 8:44 is a very strong rebuke to the Pharisees who were plotting to kill him and would not believe because of their hardened hearts. That does not mean that no one else could not believe just because they would not believe. That giant leap is not a logical conclusion.

In fact God commands "all men everywhere to repent," a command he would not give if it were not possible for man to do so.
In the same passage he explains that God has set the boundaries of men so that man would "seek him"...that "man would find him." This goes entirely against your premise and conclusion.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
--The Lord made it possible for men (these Athenian idolaters) to both seek and find the Lord without His assistance. He then commanded them to repent. It would be their choice whether or not they would do so.

Again, look at the Cornelius in comparison to John 1. Cornelius was devout, that is he conducted his living and life from the light of God given him. As a result (according to John 1) God gave Cornelius the right to become a believer and sent Peter to present the Gospel.

--Cornelius was not even a full proselyte. He listened from afar. He could not go into the synagogue for he was not circumcised. He simply responded to the light that he had. The word "devout" simply means "religious," as in "devout" Hindu. Many are sincere and devout, but that doesn't get them to heaven. He was as unsaved as the ones that killed Jesus, yelling "Crucify Him!" and just as guilty as the soldiers that drove the nails into his body. He was a part of both groups. Judaism cried for His crucifixion. He was now a part of that false religion. He was still a Roman soldier part of the ones who crucified. How much more guilty could he be. He had never heard the gospel. He was neither regenerated nor saved. He was as lost as one could be. It was for that reason that God sent Peter to him--that he could be saved. If you miss that point, you have missed the entire message of the story.
It is only through the gospel that one can be both regenerated and saved.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

And you have all wisdom and knowledge to know that the premise is false? It was based upon the logic and Scriptures I presented not just in the OP but in subsequent posts.

Again, you are ignoring Romans 1:20 and its context.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
--First note that they had the truth. They hold the truth in unrighteousness. It is the truth of the Word of God that they have turned away from.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
--God revealed to them truth.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--They had enough truth that they were able to understand the concept of the eternal Godhead, even the trinity. From this they turned away. They rejected God's eternal truth. Therefore they have no excuse. If man dwells in darkness it is not God's fault.
They willingly chose spiritual darkness, and willingly refused the light of God.

Already dealt with Cornelius. I won't repeat myself. You and Van are mistaken when you don't see that ONLY those who dwell, embrace, receive... the light are given the right (empowered, power (KJV) to become the believers. The history of Cornelius given in Scriptures show he was not turning away from the light.

Cornelius was as unsaved as the ones who drove the nails into the hands and feet of Jesus. There is no indication that he was saved. To infer otherwise is simply to read into scripture things that are not there. If one does that then he can make the Bible say whatever he wants to. He leaves sound principles of hermeneutics and enters into the field of eisegesis, which has no end of wild interpretation and speculation.

In this you are wrong.

The Scriptures do very clearly teach that the minds and hearts of the heathen are darkened, that they do not understand and not only reject the light, hate the light, but hate all who remain in the light. John 8 clearly shows this:

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? 47He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
​

This is odd. You tell me I am wrong when I use Romans 1, in which Paul is describing the general nature of mankind.
But you are using specific scripture that Jesus uses against his rivals, the Pharisees, spoken at that time in history to those that were about to crucify him. You are the one taking Scripture out of context here and misusing it. But all you can tell me when I use the Bible is:
"You are wrong."

Don't much care what "Calvinist"'s believe about regeneration.

Perhaps, but you should know what "regeneration" is, and what the Bible says about it.

The thief did not turn from the light, and he was saved. That is what John 1 teaches is the result of not turning from the light. Those that do turn from the light are not given the right to become believers. That is what John 1 teaches.

The thief repented and turned in faith toward Christ. There was no regeneration at that time. Salvation is by faith, and faith alone. He is a good example of that. We are responsible for the light that we receive. He responded to that light. He put HIS faith or trust in the Lord.
It is interesting that Jesus used the term "your faith" 22 times in the gospels.

The "process" of taking one who has not turned from the light into that of believer is not part of this thread. So, a discussion of "regeneration" doesn't belong here, UNLESS one appoints the "right" or "power" given by God as the point of "generation." (again, I am not certain "re" has much stake in the matter)

You stated in your OP:

Often the matter of choice is attempted to be strung into the area of salvation and ability outside of any influence by God to "choose" to serve or not serve God.

If choice is in the area of salvation, and the ability to choose is not outside the influence of God then you are talking of regeneration.
IOW, the position is taken that man cannot choose unless he is regenerated.
As already shown from Acts 17, that position is not tenable.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Quoted by DHK:

Again, you are ignoring Romans 1:20 and its context.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
--First note that they had the truth. They hold the truth in unrighteousness. It is the truth of the Word of God that they have turned away from.

This is where you are way off base, mon ami. In the context of Paul's writing, the word 'hold' meant to 'hold back', 'suppress' and not possess.


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness[NIV]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.[ESV]

For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth[HCSB]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;[ASV]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, which withhold the truth in unrighteousness.[Geneva]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[NASB]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.[RSV]

For the wrath of God is showed from heaven on all unpiety and wickedness of those men, that withhold the truth of God in unrightwiseness. [Forsooth the wrath of God is showed from heaven upon all unpiety and unrightwiseness of those men, that withhold, or hold aback, the truth of God in unrightwiseness.][WYC] The 'or hold aback' is in italics, so I guess that was him stating what it meant.

for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.[YLT]


They never held the truth while in unrighteousness. It was in their unrighteousness they were holding it back, suppressing it. But they never held the truth, mon ami.

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,


Were the OT saints such as Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Joshua, Jonah, saved during those OT days?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Quoted by DHK:


Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
--The Lord made it possible for men (these Athenian idolaters) to both seek and find the Lord without His assistance. He then commanded them to repent. It would be their choice whether or not they would do so.

No other way to put it than to say this is full-blown Pelagianism. Jesus said no man could come to Him unless drawn by the Father. Yet, you state here that fallen, sinful creation can seek Him without God's assistance. That is full-blown Pelagianism.


From theopedia:

With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation.

http://www.theopedia.com/pelagianism

Now, I am not saying you advocate that people earn their salvation, but by affirming that fallen, sinful creatures can seek God without His divine assistance is what Pelagius taught, if historical records concerning him are true.

 

[DHK]

This is where you are way off base, mon ami. In the context of Paul's writing, the word 'hold' meant to 'hold back', 'suppress' and not possess.


The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness[NIV]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.[ESV]

For God’s wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth[HCSB]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness;[ASV]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness of men, which withhold the truth in unrighteousness.[Geneva]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,[NASB]

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.[RSV]

For the wrath of God is showed from heaven on all unpiety and wickedness of those men, that withhold the truth of God in unrightwiseness. [Forsooth the wrath of God is showed from heaven upon all unpiety and unrightwiseness of those men, that withhold, or hold aback, the truth of God in unrightwiseness.][WYC] The 'or hold aback' is in italics, so I guess that was him stating what it meant.

for revealed is the wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety and unrighteousness of men, holding down the truth in unrighteousness.[YLT]


They never held the truth while in unrighteousness. It was in their unrighteousness they were holding it back, suppressing it. But they never held the truth, mon ami.

If you have nothing you have nothing to suppress. You can only "suppress" or "hold" or "hold back" if you have an actual object to suppress, hold, or hold back. And they did. It was the truth revealed to them by God. They had it; possessed it; and held it back or suppressed it, etc. But they had to have it in order to suppress it.

John A. Witmer, Associate Professor Emeritus of Systematic Theology in Dallas Theological Seminary, writes in The Bible Knowledge Commentary (edited by Walvoord)

Failure to give God His due inevitably results in failure to treat people, created by God in His image, the right way. Conversely, people (in their unrighteousness toward others) continue to suppress (katechontōn, lit., “holding down”) the truth (cf. Rom_1:25; Rom_2:8) concerning both God and man. People had God’s truth but suppressed it, refusing to heed it. And these wicked ones did this in an attitude of wickedness (en adikia). This suppression of the truth is Paul’s first reason for God’s condemnation of the pagan world.

 

[DHK]

DHK,


Were the OT saints such as Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Joshua, Jonah, saved during those OT days?

In the Book of Habakkuk, Habakkuk writes knowing that Judah will be taken captive by Babylon, a very wicked and ungodly nation. In chapter two, God, through Habakkuk, pronounces His judgment on Babylon. In the midst of that judgment Habakkuk says:

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

This verse is quoted three times in the NT.
But here it is directed to the Israelite. The Israelite that is a righteous person shall live by HIS FAITH.

As it was in Habakkuk's day so it was in the days of all the OT saints.
They were justified by faith. Go through Hebrews chapter 11--the heroes of faith. They were saved by faith, justified by faith, lived by faith, died by faith.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--How was Abraham saved? By faith.
He believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What about David:
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
--David was not saved by works, but by faith. The context is the same here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

In the Book of Habakkuk, Habakkuk writes knowing that Judah will be taken captive by Babylon, a very wicked and ungodly nation. In chapter two, God, through Habakkuk, pronounces His judgment on Babylon. In the midst of that judgment Habakkuk says:

Hab 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

This verse is quoted three times in the NT.
But here it is directed to the Israelite. The Israelite that is a righteous person shall live by HIS FAITH.

As it was in Habakkuk's day so it was in the days of all the OT saints.
They were justified by faith. Go through Hebrews chapter 11--the heroes of faith. They were saved by faith, justified by faith, lived by faith, died by faith.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
--How was Abraham saved? By faith.
He believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What about David:
Rom 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
--David was not saved by works, but by faith. The context is the same here.

Alrighty then...how could David be saved and not also be regenerated?

 

[DHK]

No other way to put it than to say this is full-blown Pelagianism. Jesus said no man could come to Him unless drawn by the Father. Yet, you state here that fallen, sinful creation can seek Him without God's assistance. That is full-blown Pelagianism.


From theopedia:

With regards to salvation, it teaches that man has the ability in and of himself (apart from divine aid) to obey God and earn eternal salvation.

http://www.theopedia.com/pelagianism

Now, I am not saying you advocate that people earn their salvation, but by affirming that fallen, sinful creatures can seek God without His divine assistance is what Pelagius taught, if historical records concerning him are true.

I am not concerned with what Pelagius taught. Maybe he taught how to use a knife and fork; I don't really care.
I do not hold to the belief that man can earn his own salvation. For you to say such is libel.
For you to say that man cannot seek or find God is simply to deny God when it is God himself (or at least Paul in this case) says he can.

You are the one that are in the horns of a dilemma here. You don't know what to choose. Paul clearly says in the inspired Word that man can seek God and find God.
You, in your pursuit of Calvinism, says he cannot. So choose: Is it Paul or Calvin that you will believe.
I didn't say those words. Paul did. I will post them again for you.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
--The Lord made it possible for men (these Athenian idolaters) to both seek and find the Lord without His assistance. He then commanded them to repent. It would be their choice whether or not they would do so.

I did not write Acts 17:27 or this portion of Scripture. The Holy Spirit did. Take your argument up with Him.

 

[DHK]

Alrighty then...how could David be saved and not also be regenerated?

Regeneration applies only to the NT. He was saved by faith. He was justified by faith. But regeneration is a specific act of the Holy Spirit which did not happen in the OT, and never happened until Pentecost took place.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I am not concerned with what Pelagius taught. Maybe he taught how to use a knife and fork; I don't really care.
I do not hold to the belief that man can earn his own salvation. For you to say such is libel.
For you to say that man cannot seek or find God is simply to deny God when it is God himself (or at least Paul in this case) says he can.

You are the one that are in the horns of a dilemma here. You don't know what to choose. Paul clearly says in the inspired Word that man can seek God and find God.
You, in your pursuit of Calvinism, says he cannot. So choose: Is it Paul or Calvin that you will believe.
I didn't say those words. Paul did. I will post them again for you.

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
--The Lord made it possible for men (these Athenian idolaters) to both seek and find the Lord without His assistance. He then commanded them to repent. It would be their choice whether or not they would do so.

I did not write Acts 17:27 or this portion of Scripture. The Holy Spirit did. Take your argument up with Him.

Go back and reread what I posted. I stated that you do not believe people can earn their salvation. You are seeing what you want to see, mon ami. I never stated you believed that. Please reread.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Here's a snippet of that post...

Now, I am not saying you advocate that people earn their salvation,

 

[SovereignGrace]

Regeneration applies only to the NT. He was saved by faith. He was justified by faith. But regeneration is a specific act of the Holy Spirit which did not happen in the OT, and never happened until Pentecost took place.

But even you stated that regeneration and salvation happen at the same time, of which I completely agree with. :thumbsup:


But no one is saved without a new birth, regeneration, being born again, born from above, &c.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I am not concerned with what Pelagius taught. Maybe he taught how to use a knife and fork; I don't really care.

you do not care what the church has historically taught as you have posted many times.

I do not hold to the belief that man can earn his own salvation. For you to say such is libel

.

that is not what SG said......but being you always post for us it does not matter. BB is now the DHK board as you make up what you think we might say....
or what you think is the "logical conclusion"...even we none of us said this.

For you to say that man cannot seek or find God is simply to deny God when it is God himself (or at least Paul in this case) says he can.

here is what Paul said;
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one


there it is...none that seek God

You are the one that are in the horns of a dilemma here. You don't know what to choose. Paul clearly says in the inspired Word that man can seek God and find God.

you do not understand acts 17.....Paul urges them to repent.....

then you add this unbiblical assertion;

--The Lord made it possible for men (these Athenian idolaters) to both seek and find the Lord without His assistance. He then commanded them to repent. It would be their choice whether or not they would do so.

It is you who deny the scripture once again.

You, in your pursuit of Calvinism, says he cannot. So choose: Is it Paul or Calvin that you will believe.

It is your hatred of the truth known as Calvinism that causes your error.

--The Lord made it possible for men (these Athenian idolaters) to both seek and find the Lord without His assistance. He then commanded them to repent. It would be their choice whether or not they would do so.

.[/QUOTE]
You are in denial of truth.

 

[Iconoclast]

Go back and reread what I posted. I stated that you do not believe people can earn their salvation. You are seeing what you want to see, mon ami. I never stated you believed that. Please reread.

He changes what you say to be what he wants it to read.
What you actually said he cannot answer so he invents what he wants you to say.
I know what you actually said:wavey:

 

[DHK]

Go back and reread what I posted. I stated that you do not believe people can earn their salvation. You are seeing what you want to see, mon ami. I never stated you believed that. Please reread.

Here is the part that I read and that is relevant:

by affirming that fallen, sinful creatures can seek God without His divine assistance is what Pelagius taught, if historical records concerning him are true.

First, no man merits his own salvation.
Second, it is stated clearly from Acts 17:26-30, that God has provided a way that man is able to: repent, seek God, and find God. This is not Pelagian teaching; it is the teaching of Scripture.

 

[DHK]

But even you stated that regeneration and salvation happen at the same time, of which I completely agree with. :thumbsup:


But no one is saved without a new birth, regeneration, being born again, born from above, &c.

Generally speaking of NT believers this is true. The context of this discussion, as I remember it, is how a person is saved today.

This is a very good and comprehensive definition:

Watson's Biblical and Theological Dictionary
REGENERATION
REGENERATION, a new birth; that work of the Holy Spirit by which we experience a change of heart. It is expressed in Scripture by being born again, Joh 3:7; born from above; being quickened, Eph 2:1; by Christ being formed in the heart, Ga 4:19; by our partaking of the divine nature, 2Pe 1:4. The efficient cause of regeneration is the divine Spirit. That man is not the author of it, is evident from Joh 1:12-13; 3:4; Eph 2:8,10. The instrumental cause is the word of God, Jas 1:18; 1Pe 1:23; 1Co 4:15. The change in regeneration consists in the recovery of the moral image of God upon the heart; that is to say, so as to love him supremely and serve him ultimately as our highest end, and to delight in him superlatively as our chief good. The sum of the moral law is to love the Lord our God with all our heart, and soul, and strength, and mind. This is the duty of every rational creature; and in order to obey it perfectly, no part of our inward affection or actual service ought to be, at any time, or in the least degree misapplied. Regeneration consists in the principle being implanted, obtaining the ascendancy, and habitually prevailing over its opposite. It may be remarked, that though the inspired writers use various terms and modes of speech in order to describe this change of mind, sometimes terming it conversion, regeneration, a new creation, or the new creature, putting off the old man with his deeds, and putting on the new man, walking not after the flesh, but after the Spirit, &c; yet it is all effected by the word of truth, or the Gospel of salvation, gaining an entrance into the mind, through divine teaching, so as to possess the understanding, subdue the will, and reign in the affections. In a word, it is faith working by love that constitutes the new creature, the regenerate man, Ga 5:6; 1Jo 5:1-5. Regeneration is to be distinguished from our justification, although it is connected with it. Every one who is justified, is also regenerated; but the one places us in a new relation, and the other in a new moral state. Our Lord, in one instance, uses the term regeneration for the resurrection state: "Ye which have followed me, in the regeneration, when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging," Mt 19:28. And, accordingly, Dr. Campbell translates the passage thus: "At the renovation, when the Son of man shall be seated on the glorious throne, ye, my followers, sitting also upon twelve thrones, shall judge." We are accustomed, says he to apply the term solely to the conversion of individuals; whereas its relation here is to the general state of things. The principal completion will be at the general resurrection, when there will be, in the most important sense, a renovation or regeneration of heaven and earth, when all things shall become new.