Tullian Tchividjian Back in Active Ministry

[blessedwife318]

Agedman and annsni both very well stated.

 

[Reformed]

Agedman and annsni both very well stated.

I concur.....

 

[Jkdbuck76]

She sinned first, then he sinned? Same order in which Eve and Adam sinned.

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[blessedwife318]

She sinned first, then he sinned? Same order in which Eve and Adam sinned.

Sent from my KFTT using Tapatalk

Yes same order and so far there has been the same response with Tullian pointing his finger at his wife.

 

[blessedwife318]

Agreed, you simply ignore what impact her sin may had in his actions.

His "actions" huh. Why did you not call his "actions" what they are? They are his sin and should not be made light of. You had no problem I see calling his wife sin sin so why not his?

No-one said he wasn't.

So you will stop trying to blame his wife now I hope.

Not according to you...it doesn't matter she cheated first.

You really think when Tullian or any of us for that matter stand before God we will be able to point to someone else's sin as an excuse? All that matters is my sin. No one else's sin matters at that moment, and no one else's sins matter right now in respect to sin because I am responsible for my sin. It's not that hard of concept.

No, it is not a simple concept, nor is it a simple matter.

Yes it is. My sin is my sin. I have no one else to blame for my sin.

You are missing what I am saying in all of this, which is why having a discussion with you is pointless.

You are free to think that but it won't stop me from pointing out what the Bible says on this issue.

Now factor [his wife's sin] that into the equation.

Do you still think it doesn't matter she cheated first?

His wife's sin is no excuse for his sin. As I said above when he stands before God he will be responsible for his sin. There will be no pointing to someone else's sin.

No-one said that.





You bear false witness...again.

Now quote me excusing his sin...or admit your error.

Well first of all the fact that you think I'm in error for saying we are each responsible for our own sin regardless of other people's sin shows you think we can excuse our sin. But I will post everything you have said on this issue you in this thread and then people can see for themselves.

You ignore the wife's transgression

Since when...does adultery not matter? It's okay for women to cheat on their husbands? There is no possibility this man's sin is a direct result of that betrayal?


You are free to quote me "justifying his sin" based on either his or her actions, but the only one you will find justifying sin is the one who said...

"HE cheated on his wife and it doesn't matter that she cheated first"

...and that attitude does display a bias.

And this thread is in fact about his wife, as well as his former congregation, as well as his new congregation, as well as all onlookers.

Deflection.

"HE cheated on his wife and it doesn't matter that she cheated first"


Admit your error.

It does matter that she cheated first, that is something that impacts this situation as a whole. Even if he was not aware of it, her actions surely impacted the relationship.

Or do you think that a wife can cheat on her husband and the family will be unaffected?

When you repeatedly say that being responsible for your own sins is an error and keep bringing up the wife what else is one to conclude but that you think the wife's sin (notice I call her actions what they are) is an excuse for his "actions" as you called them.

But it is not his deflection we are talking about...it is yours.

Think what you want but I will keep saying that people are responsible for their own sin.

False witness.

Quote me where I have excused his sin.

Well I'm glad you called it sin this time.
See above for all your quotes on this topic.

And you need to take responsibility for yours.

Maybe we are getting somewhere after all if you are admitting that I am responsible for my sins.

Unless bearing false witness is not a sin in your book either.

And what have I said is not a sin or are you bearing false witness against me now?

The point you are missing is that all of these things should be considered, both of their sins.

Each of them is responsible for their own sin, regardless of the sin of their spouse. Neither should point to the other as an excuse for their sin. It's not that difficult of concept.

Now do you think there is restoration in the wife's future? Shall we pray for her?

Do you? Since you have joined Tullian in throwing her under the bus.

She can be forgiven same as he can and restored to fellowship, but she has no business being in a leadership or deaconess role any more then he does. Both of them are disqualified from that aspect of ministry.

And that is it for me in this discussion with you, unless you can quote me and substantiate the charges you have falsely levied.

See above.

I think it's simply a matter of you wanting to argue with someone, and that is not going to be me.


God bless.

Ironic coming from someone that titled a thread looking for antagonist.

 

[Darrell C]

The IMPACT of sin in the family brings sorrow to the whole family.

Bingo.

There is no excuse for what the wife did, but that is not the issue.

It is part of the issue.

Why would you think her sin is irrelevant?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Very well said. His wife sinned. That would be enough for the man to ask for a time of a sabbatical or leave of absence from his church to work on his family and marriage. This I would respect. However, instead of doing anything like this, the man went out and had his own affair showing a lack of self control and a lack of maturity in his walk with Christ and then he files for divorce. His heart was not turned towards God but instead towards his own fleshly desires. This really speaks volumes.

Here's another course he could have taken: publicly denounce and divorce his wife.

Would you have approved of that?


God bless.

 

[Revmitchell]

 

[Darrell C]

That is amusing, to be sure, but I see in this thread some important issues being discussed.

It gives an insight, I believe, to why things like this happen to begin with.

God bless.

 

[annsni]

Here's another course he could have taken: publicly denounce and divorce his wife.

Would you have approved of that?


God bless.

I would be saddened and I would expect him to step down to take care of his family and to seek healing but yes, divorce would have been a better choice (and allowable by God) than adultery and then divorce.

 

[blessedwife318]

Here's another course he could have taken: publicly denounce and divorce his wife.

Would you have approved of that?


God bless.

That's pretty much what he has done with the addition of having his own affair before publicly denouncing his wife and then divorcing her.

But to answer your hypothetical question, I would not approve of him staying in a leadership or deacon role after filing for divorce.

I wonder why you added publicly denoucing her? He could hypothetically divorce her without making sure everyone knows her sin. People would read between the lines but it would be no one business.

 

[Darrell C]

I would be saddened and I would expect him to step down to take care of his family and to seek healing but yes, divorce would have been a better choice (and allowable by God) than adultery and then divorce.

I would have to agree, divorce would have been preferable than the course that he took, and perhaps compounded afterwards.

But, would that mean he would have to step down if he had done so? Christ and Paul make it clear that there are legitimate reasons for divorce, and I would have to see Scripture that would cancel a man's Pastoral ministry if he did have to divorce on Biblical Grounds.

Being a "man of one wife" does not, in my view, mean that a man can not have been married more than once. Some will enforce that interpretation, but it is doubtful that the sins of a spouse would cancel out ministries.

But, back to what has happened in this situation: do you feel that the wife's adultery could have had a role in how things have transpired?

Secondly, do you feel that it is hopeless for these two, or do you think it possible that reconciliation and restoration could take place?

Lastly, do you feel the new congregation has erred in taking him back in their fold, particularly since it is made clear that restoration of this fellow is their hope?


God bless.

 

[annsni]

I would have to agree, divorce would have been preferable than the course that he took, and perhaps compounded afterwards.

But, would that mean he would have to step down if he had done so? Christ and Paul make it clear that there are legitimate reasons for divorce, and I would have to see Scripture that would cancel a man's Pastoral ministry if he did have to divorce on Biblical Grounds.

Well, this goes to the question of "Did he manage his household well?" Apparently not. Adultery does not often happen in a perfect marriage and so there is work that needs to be done in both people even if they were not the "offender".

Being a "man of one wife" does not, in my view, mean that a man can not have been married more than once. Some will enforce that interpretation, but it is doubtful that the sins of a spouse would cancel out ministries.

It would be extremely rare for a spouse to cheat in a perfect marriage. I do believe that the sin of a spouse very well can cancel out the ministry of the other spouse depending on the situation. At the very least, a time should be taken to work on things wrong and heal.

But, back to what has happened in this situation: do you feel that the wife's adultery could have had a role in how things have transpired?

I don't know. I do know that if my husband were to cheat on me, the LAST thing on my mind would be to go out and cheat on him. It absolutely would never even begin to enter my mind. But bottom line, no matter what my spouse does, my sin is my sin and I cannot point fingers to anyone else and say "They made me do it!". That is like an abusive spouse saying "I only hit you because you made me angry. If you didn't make me angry, I wouldn't have to hit you."

Secondly, do you feel that it is hopeless for these two, or do you think it possible that reconciliation and restoration could take place?

I am not privy to the intricacies of this set of particular sins. I have counseled those who have been touched by adultery and yes, it is absolutely possible that reconciliation and restoration can take place but it is hard and it takes time. Sometimes it's harder than a couple can handle.

Lastly, do you feel the new congregation has erred in taking him back in their fold, particularly since it is made clear that restoration of this fellow is their hope?


God bless.

First off, the congregation never took him back into their fold because the church that he was the pastor of was the church he left and he was welcomed into another church.

When adultery occurs, the church leadership will deal with the couple and work towards restoration in the marriage. The offender is removed from ministry and often the offended spouse is counseled to step down for a time so that they can work on their relationship and family rather than worrying about leading worship or organizing meals for new moms. Through weeks/months/sometimes even years of counseling, our goal is to get the couple to be committed to each other, jealously guarding their relationship together with the guidance of the Spirit and to live in forgiveness and love. They will have a newfound love of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for them, having a newfound hate of sin in their lives.

As to the church who hired Tullian, they are absolutely in error.

 

[blessedwife318]

Well, this goes to the question of "Did he manage his household well?" Apparently not. Adultery does not often happen in a perfect marriage and so there is work that needs to be done in both people even if they were not the "offender".



It would be extremely rare for a spouse to cheat in a perfect marriage. I do believe that the sin of a spouse very well can cancel out the ministry of the other spouse depending on the situation. At the very least, a time should be taken to work on things wrong and heal.



I don't know. I do know that if my husband were to cheat on me, the LAST thing on my mind would be to go out and cheat on him. It absolutely would never even begin to enter my mind. But bottom line, no matter what my spouse does, my sin is my sin and I cannot point fingers to anyone else and say "They made me do it!". That is like an abusive spouse saying "I only hit you because you made me angry. If you didn't make me angry, I wouldn't have to hit you."



I am not privy to the intricacies of this set of particular sins. I have counseled those who have been touched by adultery and yes, it is absolutely possible that reconciliation and restoration can take place but it is hard and it takes time. Sometimes it's harder than a couple can handle.



First off, the congregation never took him back into their fold because the church that he was the pastor of was the church he left and he was welcomed into another church.

When adultery occurs, the church leadership will deal with the couple and work towards restoration in the marriage. The offender is removed from ministry and often the offended spouse is counseled to step down for a time so that they can work on their relationship and family rather than worrying about leading worship or organizing meals for new moms. Through weeks/months/sometimes even years of counseling, our goal is to get the couple to be committed to each other, jealously guarding their relationship together with the guidance of the Spirit and to live in forgiveness and love. They will have a newfound love of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for them, having a newfound hate of sin in their lives.

As to the church who hired Tullian, they are absolutely in error.

I could not have said it better myself.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
I would have to agree, divorce would have been preferable than the course that he took, and perhaps compounded afterwards.

But, would that mean he would have to step down if he had done so? Christ and Paul make it clear that there are legitimate reasons for divorce, and I would have to see Scripture that would cancel a man's Pastoral ministry if he did have to divorce on Biblical Grounds.

Well, this goes to the question of "Did he manage his household well?"

Not really, it goes to the question of whether there is Scripture that demands a man step down if he divorces his wife due to adultery.

It seems that the wife's actions are simply ignored.

Now let me quote you:

But bottom line, no matter what my spouse does, my sin is my sin and I cannot point fingers to anyone else and say "They made me do it!".

So your suggestion that whether he managed the household well or not and that being the first line of questioning is conflicting with what you say here.

In other words, even if he did not manage his household well..."her sin is her sin."

You cannot point the finger and say he made her do it because he did not manage his household well.

Right?

Apparently not.

You have judged and you do not even know.

Adultery does not often happen in a perfect marriage and so there is work that needs to be done in both people even if they were not the "offender".

Wouldn't it be better to say that "Adultery never happens in a perfect marriage," lol.

Of course...who is to judge what a perfect marriage is, if not the Word of God.

And since speculative judgment seems to be the order here, why not speculate that the man should have divorced his wife, then had an affair (since apparently this guy is the scum of the earth and we would expect that anyway, right?), and then we could be debating whether that was adultery. Which it would be.

But let's forget our part in this:


Galatians 6:1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.



I don't think one person has commented on this verse. If they have, please give me the post number.

Apparently you feel you are above such temptation...

I do know that if my husband were to cheat on me, the LAST thing on my mind would be to go out and cheat on him.

But I would suggest that all of us should consider the above verse. I know I do.

Quote:
Being a "man of one wife" does not, in my view, mean that a man can not have been married more than once. Some will enforce that interpretation, but it is doubtful that the sins of a spouse would cancel out ministries.

It would be extremely rare for a spouse to cheat in a perfect marriage.

How many perfect marriages do you know where there is adultery. You say it's rare, so apparently it can happen.

But since you question this fellow's rule over his household, why would you assume it was a perfect marriage if it ends in adultery?

I do believe that the sin of a spouse very well can cancel out the ministry of the other spouse depending on the situation.

So give me the Biblical Basis for that.

At the very least, a time should be taken to work on things wrong and heal.

People are different. Some immerse themselves in their work in order to deal with things. I don't have a problem with that and I would leave that to the discretion of the person.

Quote:
But, back to what has happened in this situation: do you feel that the wife's adultery could have had a role in how things have transpired?

I don't know.

Seriously?

I do know that if my husband were to cheat on me, the LAST thing on my mind would be to go out and cheat on him.

That may be true, but that may not be true of everyone. It has to do with maturity in my view, so I see this as a reaction may some erroneously have.

But that is not really the point. The question is, again...

...do you feel that the wife's adultery could have had a role in how things have transpired?

Instead of considering the impact of her adultery you jump to questioning how he ruled his household.

How hard is it to admit that, yes of course...this would have impacted the marriage and played a role in the events that transpired.

Or do you feel, as the other member...that "it didn't matter that she cheated first?"

All sin matters, and all sin has consequences.

It absolutely would never even begin to enter my mind.

I think most of us would like to believe that of ourselves.

For me, in speculating about that happening in my own marriage, the main thing I have speculated about is whether I could find forgiveness, in truth, for my wife. Because that, I believe, is what I think the Lord would have me do.

Reciprocal infidelity has never even been considered.

I just wonder if I could be Christ-like enough to forgive and enter into that restoration and healing in truth.

But bottom line, no matter what my spouse does, my sin is my sin and I cannot point fingers to anyone else and say "They made me do it!".

You do. You point the speculative finger and ask "How well did he rule his household?"

That is like an abusive spouse saying "I only hit you because you made me angry.

So what do we do with "She probably cheated because he was a lousy head of household?"

If you didn't make me angry, I wouldn't have to hit you."

"If you had been a competent husband I wouldn't have cheated on you."

Quote:
Secondly, do you feel that it is hopeless for these two, or do you think it possible that reconciliation and restoration could take place?

I am not privy to the intricacies of this set of particular sins.

Yet you judge this in a manner of condemnation despite not being privy to the "intricacies."

In my view both are culpable and both are in need of repentance.

But, I am sure that both are embarrassed and this being in the media spotlight surely hasn't helped. Bad enough situation without it being dragged into the spotlight, so it is likely that this has also contributed to their actions after the fact.

I have counseled those who have been touched by adultery and yes, it is absolutely possible that reconciliation and restoration can take place but it is hard and it takes time.

So will you pray for them? Both of them?

Will you ask God to restore this marriage?

Or does indignation rule that out?

Sometimes it's harder than a couple can handle.

I am sure it is. It is the worst betrayal known to man outside of denying Christ.

Quote:
Lastly, do you feel the new congregation has erred in taking him back in their fold, particularly since it is made clear that restoration of this fellow is their hope?


God bless.

First off, the congregation never took him back into their fold because the church that he was the pastor of was the church he left and he was welcomed into another church.

The new congregation did take him back in due to the fact that he and his family were once members there.

When adultery occurs, the church leadership will deal with the couple and work towards restoration in the marriage. The offender is removed from ministry and often the offended spouse is counseled to step down for a time so that they can work on their relationship and family rather than worrying about leading worship or organizing meals for new moms.

But to enforce that would be wrong. A Minister that is innocent in the affair should not be forced to leave his ministry.

And I do not see someone being on staff as a ministerial role, and the statement of the fellowship makes it clear they do not either.

Through weeks/months/sometimes even years of counseling, our goal is to get the couple to be committed to each other, jealously guarding their relationship together with the guidance of the Spirit and to live in forgiveness and love. They will have a newfound love of Jesus Christ and His sacrifice for them, having a newfound hate of sin in their lives.

I am glad you are able to get some of these perfect marriages where adultery has taken place back in order in weeks.

That is impressive indeed.

As to the church who hired Tullian, they are absolutely in error.

So everyone is guilty and worthy of condemnation...except the wife.

And restoring such an one, well...that doesn't apply to this situation.

You know, something we have forgotten, if there are kids, they were probably brats. That probably contributed to her sin as well. And after all who can blame her, having to put up with brats and a husband who is incompetent...no wonder she had an affair...


God bless.

 

[agedman]

Why would you think her sin is irrelevant?

Why should it be relevant?

Does it mitigate in any measure his own sin(s)?

Does the sin of the wife oblige that he also sin?
For him to even suggest that he sinned because she sinned, is an attempt to self justify.

Do you not see the evidence in hand of the enemy in all this?

Could he who is supposedly God's gift to the assembly to lead by word and example so unwise as to fall into the trap of that roaring lion? Where is the Holy Spirit's leading in his life of sin?

But see, that is part of the problem. There apparently was a lack of what is called Spiritual maturity.

One can have great knowledge, but no wisdom.

One can talk of a great gracious God, but have no personal experiential understanding of how to express that grace through their own living. They abide in and manipulate others through surface relationships, power plays, and political gain.

So, the wife sinned. She wasn't the first, nor the last pastors wife who sinned. The wife is "the weaker vessel." What does one expect from a "weaker vessel?"

What SHOULD have been his Spiritual and Scriptural response to the wife's affair?

To the WORLDLY and the wisdom of THIS world - go find comfort in the arms of another rather than the Savior.

 

[annsni]

So let me get this straight - you say that it takes more than weeks to get a marriage restored - but it's just peachy keen to continue in ministry during this time? Interesting.

I see that we have differing views of what ministry is and whether the staff of a church is doing ministry. I consider every staff person as being in ministry as well as the small group leaders, church security, Sunday school leaders, youth group volunteers and the cafe workers (all volunteer positions). If these positions are not ministry positions, then we could hire someone who is Muslim or Mormon to take on these roles since they do no ministry at all. Is that correct?

Yes, Tullian did not manage his household well but his wife's sin is her sin alone. You ask how the sin of a spouse can disqualify a person for ministry? Again - I bring you back to the managing a household well verse. It's really quite clear.

 

[Darrell C]

Why should it be relevant?

Because all sin is relevant.

Does it mitigate in any measure his own sin(s)?

I have never intimated it did, only pointed out that there is simply a condemning bias that in my view is Biblically unbalanced.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

So let me get this straight - you say that it takes more than weeks to get a marriage restored - but it's just peachy keen to continue in ministry during this time?

I am glad you are able to get some of these perfect marriages where adultery has taken place back in order in weeks.

Apparently you miss the irony of a "perfect marriage" with adultery in it.

And I do think that you can allow some adulterers and adulteresses the latitude to consider them restored after "weeks." That is very gracious. Perhaps it might indicate people who are directly involved in a situation like this can show a little more grace than the rubber-necker.

Interesting.

What is interesting is you ignoring my questions.

I guess that means my point about your somewhat hypocritical commentary is agreed to?

I see that we have differing views of what ministry is and whether the staff of a church is doing ministry.

I would say you have that right.

I consider every staff person as being in ministry as well as the small group leaders, church security, Sunday school leaders, youth group volunteers and the cafe workers (all volunteer positions).

And I will stick with the distinction the Disciples made:


Acts 6

King James Version (KJV)

And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration.

2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.


There is a distinction concerning ministering the Word of God. Show me the Biblical instruction for appointment to...café workers.

This kind of mentality is a likely reason why leadership in the fellowships might be viewed as weak in these days...no proper respect for the Ministers appointed by God to Leadership.

If these positions are not ministry positions, then we could hire someone who is Muslim or Mormon to take on these roles since they do no ministry at all. Is that correct?

Kind of absurd, don't you think? That a Church would bring in an unbeliever to work in the Church.

And again assumption arises: do you know that those café workers are born again believers? Likely you think you do, seeing you have set yourself as judge of all matters, lol.

This is like asking "Would we appoint cat burglars to the police?"

Yes, Tullian did not manage his household well

You do not know that, so your judgment is, as far as I am concerned...lacking a Biblical approach.

And your continuing refusal to consider the wife's sin hints to a bias that may be impacting your judgment.

but his wife's sin is her sin alone.

On the contrary...no-one's sin is "their sin alone." not when we consider the impact sin has on those around us.

And the simple question posed in regards to her sin is how that may have impacted the husband's actions.

This is simply incredible, a woman commits adultery and this is made out to be irrelevant.

Originally Posted by agedman View Post

Why should it be relevant?

Simply amazing.

You ask how the sin of a spouse can disqualify a person for ministry? Again - I bring you back to the managing a household well verse. It's really quite clear.

And you have judged that it is fact that he did not, and you have no basis for such an assumption.

And with that, I will waste no more time on this thread.

At least...not until someone enters the conversation that will be honest about this situation and consider all relevant issues involved.


God bless.

 

[agedman]

So let me get this straight - you say that it takes more than weeks to get a marriage restored - but it's just peachy keen to continue in ministry during this time? Interesting.

I see that we have differing views of what ministry is and whether the staff of a church is doing ministry. I consider every staff person as being in ministry as well as the small group leaders, church security, Sunday school leaders, youth group volunteers and the cafe workers (all volunteer positions). If these positions are not ministry positions, then we could hire someone who is Muslim or Mormon to take on these roles since they do no ministry at all. Is that correct?

Yes, Tullian did not manage his household well but his wife's sin is her sin alone. You ask how the sin of a spouse can disqualify a person for ministry? Again - I bring you back to the managing a household well verse. It's really quite clear.

:thumbs:

There are places he can "minister."

The TBN type folks are always willing to listen to sordid stories and restore the unqualified to ministry. He could write another book and have it made into a movie so stupid people will be distracted from the truth.

My opinion and prediction?

Opinion: This isn't the first time he has stepped outside the marriage. Perhaps the early instance(s) wasn't (weren't) a full blown affair, but it brought a crack of integrity to the home and an undercurrent of mistrust that the enemy could exploit.

Prediction: This isn't the last time he will step outside the realm of integrity and righteousness.

Psalm 15:

O LORD, who may abide in Your tent?
Who may dwell on Your holy hill?

• He who walks with integrity, and works righteousness,
• And speaks truth in his heart.
• He does not slander with his tongue,
• Nor does evil to his neighbor,
• Nor takes up a reproach against his friend;
• In whose eyes a reprobate is despised,
• But who honors those who fear the LORD;
• He swears to his own hurt and does not change;
• He does not put out his money at interest,
• Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.

He who does these things will never be shaken.
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