Eclectic is good. It can make for good biblical discussion. Much better than a homogenous amen corner.
Amen?
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Body or not?
- Thread starter agedman
- Start date
Amen?
Amen! Amen! Amen!
Lordship Salvation doctrine, which I'm out of line for mentioning it on this thread, and never mind, I don't even know for certain that you hold to it, I've just come to connect it up with Puritanism in my lil' pea brain. Sorry if I offended you.
I agree.
I also accept that a believer will grow in understanding and wisdom of God, and the Lordship over their life will reflect that growth outwardly shown as the believer brushes off the fluff and stuff of this world, cleanses their heart and mind by the Word, and grows in wisdom and gifts of the Holy Spirit - love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness...
To some, this growth is rapid and to others it is as the blind man who saw poorly and then in full (Mark 8).
"God never moves without purpose or plan
When trying His servant and molding a man"
(Ron Hamilton "Rejoice in the Lord" )
What Scriptures? The ones taken out of any true meaning and context?
(sarcasm)Actually, as a "futurist" (as some might consider me) there is just no way to have the Lord returning before the book of the Revelation was even written, and much less the three small letters of John.
Basic support for my thinking is not only found in the Scriptures; it is also to accept that the very earliest disciples of the Apostle John testified as the accepted teaching. EVERY one of them was pre-mil and looking forward to the literal return of Christ in the physical body to this earth. It is a dual authority supporting what I consider is correct of eschatology.
Had these men been taught wrong by the Apostle John - the author of the Revelation? Of course not.
Perhaps you should start a thread on the preterism view(s) - the full or partial that you hold - and enjoy the comments of others who would no doubt come to your defense or to "draw swords" to engage in conflict.
I certainly have not shied away from stating what I have held to be authentically Scriptural, and I always am interested in what others would declare of their own.
What a wonderful verse that shows what I was attempting to communicate.
Here is a bit of clarification:
1 Corinthians:
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Corinthians 6:
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 2:
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
I would go on but you well know the point. This is for the readers who may not know.2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:
1 Corinthians 6:
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
Hebrews 2:
11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are all from one Father; for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Each of the above passages do not show a progression, but an accomplished task done by the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of God.
The passages show that the sanctification is in past tense, therefore, completely done.
However, that does not mean that growth is finished.
On the contrary, as I stated, the conduit of sanctification channels the current of the Word and Holy Spirit that causes the believer to grow and abound in fruits of harvest value.
This is clearly shown in passages such as what Peter states when beginning his letter (1 Peter):
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.
These of Peter's writing show that the Holy Spirit is very active in the Sanctification of the believers; HOWEVER, there is also a tremendous responsibility of the believer found in verses from the 3rd chapter.1 Peter 3:
14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. And do not fear their intimidation, and do not be troubled, 15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence; 16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
This is not progressive, but a determined state in which the believer places Christ as Lord in their hearts. It is the duty of the believer, and nothing less is expected by God.
Now, this brings a question.
Where these believers not already saved? Had they not already understood the Lord of Salvation (or Lordship Salvation), yet here Peter states to "sanctify (title) Christ as Lord in your (the) hearts..."
This is the point in which the believer must "do" - that is title (sanctify) Christ as Lord in the heart (verse 15), mind (verse 16), soul and strength (verse 16).
Is that not what the Lord Jesus Christ stated that a person is to do? Love me with ALL your heart, mind soul, strength (body).
Well I guess it's time to come out of the closet so to speak!... I am an Amil, Historical Preterist... In other words show me the history!... the OT and the NT is not only a spiritual book but a history book... Do I believe in bodily resurrection?... A body went into the grave and a body is coming out!... I disagree with my Preterist brethren but believe Job!... Then historically A spirit hath not flesh and bones as you see me have!... Brother Glen
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What prophecy of the Olivet discourse do you take as fulfilled at what time?
I am assuming as a historic preterist, that you consider that some were fulfilled at 70 ad, some at another time and the vast majority yet to be fulfilled.
Can you give a bit of an outline of what you consider fulfilled and what is not?
And do you expect the Lord Jesus Christ to bodily set foot on this earth, again?
I admire many of them also, especially ones like John Owen. I taught a long Bible study on Hebrews. His commentary was especially helpful. I also have been greatly encouraged by his Chritiologia, even though I no longer believe in some of JO's tenets, like an Adamic Covenant.
Yes, I am a guitarist. I opened for Phish in several of their West Coast gigs. Oh wait... that was in my dreams. Actually, I just starting taking up the ax again after having left it alone for 20 years or so. But I am having a lot of fun with it, my Stratocaster.
Now, for starters on Zech. 14, may I suggest you look at one phrase that recurs throughout the whole book, "in that day". I believe it occurs 19 times. I also believe that they are all meant to be taken together as referring to the same general time. I certainly don't believe that the phrase can be divided into two "that day's", spanning a gap that is now nearly two millenia wide.
Edit: For the sake of convenience here are the Zechariah occurrences of the phrase. More comments below:
Zec_2:11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto thee.
Zec_3:10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Zec_9:16 And the LORD their God shall save them in that day as the flock of his people: for they shall be as the stones of a crown, lifted up as an ensign upon his land.
[Zec_11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the LORD.]
Zec_12:3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
Zec_12:4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
Zec_12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
Zec_12:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Zec_12:9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
Zec_12:11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Zec_13:1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zec_13:2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
Zec_13:4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
Zec_14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec_14:6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
Zec_14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
Zec_14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Zec_14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
Zec_14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec_14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
I can see now that I miswrote. I meant to say that every prophetic use of the phrase should be considered as referring to the same time. Prophetic application is easily seen by the use of future tense, most often "and it shall come to pass". For the sake of completeness I listed Zech. 11:11, though it does not have this prophetic use.
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Actually, "in that day" reoccurring does not to point to the same time, but to establish what will occur at the time the "in that day" is referring.
Sort of like starting a biography of someone who lived in the 1915's when the average wage was like $0.22 per hour, and gas was sold at grocery stores. "In that day" a person might visit a physician that never attended collage but graduated from a physician school of little reputation. Now jump ahead fifty years, and "in that day" (1950) one out of every 5 cars was a Ford, and the big band era was being replaced by doo wop, where vocalists would imitate the rhythm and sounds of the instrumentals in what we refer to as scat sounds. Now jump another 50 years, and "in that day" we have a nation that can't get enough.
So, "in that day" is not a connecting to a single time, but a phrase used to state what will happen at that point in prophecy. Some "in that day" phrases may be joined, but other may not. For example, the "on that day" of Ezekiel 20:6 is not in the same time of events as the "in that day" of Ezekiel 29:21. And like most prophets, God did not move them from time line point to time line point in what one might consider a logical time line order.
Rather, God presents the prophet(s) with what He desires communicated, irregardless of what man may desire as a time line. So, something written, say in the first part of Isaiah, doesn't necessarily fall into the same time line place as other prophecies even within that particular book.
Perhaps I was unclear. I would disagree here. The two sets of verses, Ezekiel and Zech, are not really comparable. The "that day" of Ezek 20:6 has already been qualified in the previous verse as the day when God chose Israel.
I never said that those three words automatically, by themselves, acquire a special meaning.
The vast majority has already been filled according to history... Let the great preacher Spurgeon explain!
The reason for this injunction was thus stated by the Savior: “For there shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.” Read the record written by Josephus of the destruction of Jerusalem, and see how truly our Lord’s words were fulfilled. The Jews impiously said, concerning the death of Christ, “His blood be on us, and on our children.” Never did any other people invoke such an awlful curse upon themselves, and upon no other nation did such a judgment ever fall. We read of Jews crucified till there was no more wood for making crosses, of thousands of the people slaying one another in their fierce faction fights within the city, of so many of them being sold for slaves that they became a drug in the market, and all but valueless, and of the fearful carnage when the Romans at length entered the doomed capital, and the blood-curdling story exactly bears out the Savior’s statement uttered nearly forty years before the terrible events occurred.
Will Jesus Christ ever touch the earth again... Not according to I Thessalonians 4:16-17 & 2 Peter 3:10-13... If the Terrestrial and the Celestial are dissolved... The first and second heaven... What remains but the 3rd Heaven... The Eternal!... Enough for now!... Brother Glen
Have you considered all the other Zech. uses of the phrase "in that day"? If you do not see all of these verses as referring to the same time (as I do) maybe we can focus on the ones in this 14th chapter: 4, 6, 8, 8, 13, 20, and 21. Do you believe that those refer to the same time? I do. I believe that every single one of them refer to the changeover to the New Covenant, the Gospel Age, whatever you want to call it.
BTW, there is an interesting and instructive parallel between Zech 14 and Zech 4 and 5 which IMO furthers my point that these are all referring to the same time. But this is getting too long. Perhaps that should be another thread altogether.
Agedman said:
I'm sorry to be late on this, but I reply as follows:
1. Yes. From the O.T. I would cite Job 19:25-26. The context of verse 26 forbids us to think that v.25 refers to our Lord's first coming. From the N.T. Acts 1:11 and Rev. 1:7 are completely conclusive. Our Lord will come in the same way that He left- visibly.
2. Our Lord will certainly reign in the New Jerusalem in the New Heavens and New Earth (Rev. 21:22). I very much suspect that He will be seated on a throne there (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 3:21). I believe the verses that some are so keen on quoting from Zechariah and elsewhere should be interpreted in this light.
3. No.
I would just like to add that whilst I cannot always agree with my Dispensational friends, I appreciate their desire to be Scriptural, and if (God forbid!) I had to choose between Dispensational Premillennialism and Hyper-Preterism, I would unhesitatingly choose the former. Jesus Christ is coming again, and any teaching that denies this is a departure from orthodox Christianity.
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Reference has been made to Matthew 24:34. The last time that hyper-Preterism raised its ugly head here, I wrote this on my blog:
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/the-fogotten-doctrine-loving-the-return-of-christ-3/
https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2012/03/05/the-fogotten-doctrine-loving-the-return-of-christ-3/
I played bass, Hard Rock/Heavy Metal, back in the day.
I also put it down, primarily because music was my life, and perhaps my god. I have jammed with a few Christian friends, and once in a Church Band, but have pretty much fallen into musical amnesia, lol. Right now probably my favorite contemporary band would be Casting Crowns. Chris Tomlin is another favorite. But I just don't listen to music much anymore.
And don't laugh, but I still like to hear Men at Work once in a while, lol (and would have never admitted I liked those guys when I was a headbanger, lol, but there is some excellent musical talent there).
You had me going when I first started reading, lol. I am not familiar with Phish, though.
I just don't see a valid argument, which has a premise that "in that Day" must refer to the same event.
Prophecy can be seen to have multiple applications, starting first with Christ's coming as a good example. Many prophecies referring to Christ can be seen to apply to the First and Second Coming.
Secondly, we still have a problem in that the events described in Zechariah have not yet been fulfilled.
Note-Tom, removed other verses to shorten post and make it one instead of having to continue.
Let's just take a look at one of the verses quoted to show the same event has to be in view:
Now let's expand the text in view:
Zechariah 11:11-14
King James Version (KJV)
11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it was the word of the Lord.
12 And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver.
13 And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord.
14 Then I cut asunder mine other staff, even Bands, that I might break the brotherhood between Judah and Israel.
Now let's see this applied in the New Testament:
Matthew 27:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.
9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;
10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
Now it says it was spoken by "Jeremy," Jeremiah, and the reconciliation of Matthew's error," according to certain commentators, would be that "Jeremy" is a collective name used to refer to the Prophets in general.
This would show an application to Christ's Day, specifically the time of His Death.
If this is rejected because it doesn't say Zechariah, then we can move on to...
Let's put these back into a fuller context:
Zechariah 12:9-11
King James Version (KJV)
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
While vv.9 and 11 would seem to support the point you are seeking to make, adding v.10 back in hinders it.
Let's see the New Testament application to this verse:
John 19:36-37
King James Version (KJV)
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
Again, we see an application to Christ's Death.
Let's also consider yet another application:
Revelation 1:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
So I would suggest we see yet another application which is still future. So I would have to object to the point sought to be made, which cannot be seen to be consistent in all points.
And short on time this morning so I will leave it there.
God bless.
When did this 'return' occur?:
40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21
(notice how they were 'REPLACED'?)
If you're hanging your hat on the late date theory for the writing of Revelation it's weak and doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all. The book was written along about 68 A.D.. I suggest you do more research.
The dating of Revelation
Was the author of Revelation taught wrong with these specific instructions?:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things that are written therein: for the time is at hand. Rev 1
7 And behold, I come quickly. Blessed is he that keepeth the words of the prophecy of this book.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not up the words of the prophecy of this book; for the time is at hand.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to each man according as his work is.
20 He who testifieth these things saith, Yea: I come quickly. Amen: come, Lord Jesus. Re 22