I've acquired 4 books

Mandarin is a tough language. The four tones are hard enough, but the addition of the measure words before each noun just about killed me when I was studying this language. I took classes and also used the software Rosetta Stone. The Pinyin helped as well as the simplified characters. It was while studying Mandarin that I came to realize that meaning is lost in any translation. This made me wonder how much of the meaning in the words of Jesus we have lost in any translation of the Hebrew or Greek.

Good luck with your studies.

Jesus, In His Own Words is a most interesting book. To me it is very informative and instructive. Bringing Jesus' words together certainly sheds new light on his meaning. I mean some of his words put together in this way are tough. Enjoy the book. It is a good one

Enjoy the other books also.

 

I do not know what you mean by reliable translations.

Personally I believe we have reliable translations. The translators did as good a job as they could. But meaning is lost in any translation. I am stuck with English translations as that is the only language I am able to read the Bible in, but I know there is lost meaning. If I were extremely knowledgeable in Hebrew or Biblical Greek I would know where meaning the the translation was lost. There are words in any language that the meaning in the original language simply cannot be translated into another language and all the meaning captured.

When you read His words with no other words added then, IMHO, his words come across even stronger than when others words are added to the text, as is the case in the Bible. This takes nothing away from the Bible.

Yes. We used this book as our study guide in our church this year.

 

No mystery here. I know what I mean by reliable. I do not know what you were thinking when you say reliable.

Again, I acknowledge that we have reliable translations. I do not know what your understanding of reliable translations means.

The best example I know of in meaning lost is the word "love" as used when Jesus asks Peter "Do you love me" three times. English has only one word for love. Greek has four with four distinct meanings. Christ does not use the same Greek word in each question. Thus English looses meaning.

What do you mean superintends?

I know meaning is lost else well meaning Christians would not come up with such a variety of interpretations and there would be no arguments over what particular passages mean.

Seems a very open ended question. Everyone has doctrines, whether they know their belief is a doctrine or not.

"Believes certain things" is such a nebulous term to me. I have no idea how to answer or reply to the question. Give me an example.

Have you read the book? If not I gently suggest you read the book. I believe my words will become clear if you do so. Christ's words are so very powerful.

I cannot do so. Perhaps someone could, but not me. Additionally there are many shades of blue; i.e. azure, aero, Alice blue, Carolina blue, indigo, bean blue, B'dazzled Blue. The list of blues is very long. Which am I do describe?[/quote][/QUOTE]

 

I do not know what you believe I am skeptical about.

I agree with your statement as to good translations.

I disagree. There is a huge difference between eros and agape.
There is a large difference between phileo and agape.
The fourth word Greek word, storge, does not appear in the Bible.

As we began talking about books, a very good book is "The Four Loves" by C.S. Lewis.

Yes, and the Holy Spirit uses books, people, commentaries and other means to enlighten people.

Yes, they do read much the same. That is why a person has to be careful. A comma here or a missing comma or the addition of a word can change the meaning greatly.

In the New World Translation adds the word a in John 1:1. It reads, In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and was a God. [Emphasis mine]. Do you see how this changes this verse to a totally unacceptable belief? It is subtle, it is sly and it is wrong.

I agree.

Start other threads on specific doctrines and we and others can discuss them.

I will take that as a compliment.

It is not the words that are problems. Is is the meaning lost in words between one language and another. I was reading yesterday and the author said the baby, a body, was given the name ... one word name ... that in that language means cries at the top of his lungs. That one word in that language would be impossible to translate as one word in English.

I have a friend, a Nigerian Baptist pastor who said there is no word for snow in his tribal language. So to say "You sins have been washed white as snow" is impossible. So they say "Washed as white as wool."

Years ago I heard another missionary say that where he worked the people had no word for sheep nor shepherd. But pigs are very important in their culture. So Jesus was called the Good Pig Keeper.

Translators have to do the best they can within their language, but meaning is definitely lost and it cannot be helped. That is where, for folk like me, who do not understand Greek or Hebrew commentaries come in so handy and edify.

All salvation goes through Jesus Christ.

Yes.

 

I believe in the context of the conversation between Jesus and Peter there is a difference in the meaning. I have never heard a sermon saying otherwise. I have heard numerous sermons saying there is a difference. That is my belief.

I will have to check to be sure, but I believe C.S. Lewis agrees with me. I am not sure if I still own his book The Four Loves. I may have given it to our church library or to another person. If I still have it I can easily check on this.

 

I agree that good translators try very hard to convey meaning.as closely to the original as possible.

It is not that simple. Different words are used in different translations:

KJV Say All scripture is inspired by God

NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Amplified All Scripture is God-breathed (given by divine inspiration) ...........

Darby Translation Every scripture (is) divinely inspired

The Message Every part of scripture is God-breathed



Now all these mean pretty much the same in English. But that does not mean that all the meaning of the Greek word could successfully be captured in either the word, "inspired" or "God-breathed". Is the truth there? Yes. Is all the meaning there. I don't know as I do not know Greek. Do I worry about it? No, I do not.

Perhaps there is a BB member who is very fluent in Greek and could help us here. .

 

I am sorry and I mean no offense. But from my understanding of the two words I do not believe they are interchangeable and I especially do not believe they are interchangeable in the conversation between Jesus and Peter.

I have never hears a preacher or a seminary professor say that Phileo and Agape.

Phileo has to do with loves that is within a friendship.

Agape is to love unconditionally in a sacrificing way as in God's loved us so much he gave his only son. Agape is the most noble love possible.

The first and second time Jesus ask Peter, "Do you agape me?"

Each time Peter said, "I phileo you.

The problem in English is both have to be translated as "love" and the different meanings do not come through in English.

The third time Jesus did not use agape me, but ask, "Do you phileo me?'

And to me Peter in despair replied, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you,”

Peter never used agape, the highest form of love in his answer.

I have heard scholars say a more accurate translation of the third question would be; "Do you even phileo me?"

I believe Jesus was teaching Peter that to phileo him is not enough. We must agape Jesus ... and they are not the same in meaning in this context.

I have done a bit of research and so far I find no definitions or commentaries that say the two words can be used interchangeable in Jesus and Peter's conversation.

Blessings.

 

Sorry, I do not buy that line of reasoning. I have never heard anyone suggest that phileo is a higher form of love than agape as Dr. Carson suggests? On this one I believe he is wrong. The weight of everything I have read and heard speak the opposite.

I am sorry, I really am, but I am not impressed with Trinity's accreditation. It is not of the highest.