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Featured God knows us before We are Born Therefore He Predestines By that Forknowledge

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by revmwc, Jan 19, 2016.

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  1. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Never have I condoned a works based salvation. Let's look at what I have said, first in the O.P "God pre-knew Jeremiah and the choices Jeremiah would make before he was in the womb, God Predestined him to be conformed to being a prophet and for us we see:" Where are works in this? God stated that HE pre-knew Jeremiah, not his works but his Faith.
    Again in the O.P "God knows us before we are ever born and therefore we are called and predestinated before birth. God does this while giving us volition to make choices for Him or to reject Him, the thing is because of His omniscience He already knows the choices we will make." He knew when we would call upon the name of the Lord when we would place our Faith in Christ as our savior, where are works in that? Calvin stated this "but set apart according to God’s predestination and hidden purpose; that is, God chose him then to be a Prophet." chose him when to be a prophet, in eternity past and before he was in the womb, based on what? Jeremiah's Faith not any works but God saw His Faith before he was in the womb. That should be quite clear, God didn't select Jeremiah because of his works but because He saw Jeremiah's faith and when before he was in the womb.
    From post #13 "No I am saying that He predestinated us based on knowing us beforehand that is He knew who would call upon the name of the Lord the choice we would make in Faith" He knew when we would place our Faith in Christ and Call upon Him for Salvation

    From Post #16 "So that whosoever believeth on Him would not perish but have everlasting life. God foreknew who the whosoever were, He knows who the whosoevers are today and He has known this before the foundation of the world." God know whosover will call and has known it before we were in the womb. He saw our Faith and our choice to receive Christ, where do you see works in the TCassidy?

    John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    God knew the exact moment when the person would or would not believe and that is not of works.

    Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

    God new in eternity past the exact moment the Phillipian jailer would believe.

    Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    God knows who will and who will not call upon Him for Salvation and He has known it since before they entered the womb.

    1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:
    Paul knew that future people would receive Christ that is a basic knowledge knowing people would come tothe Lord. God knows exactly how many will call upon the then name of Jesus Christ and has known since before the foundation of the world and that is not a salvation by works it is a salvation by Grace through Faith in the Lord Jesus. I just happen to believe that God has known beforehand who would BELIEVE AND CALL, upon Christ. Just as He knew Jacob would and just as He knew Jeremiah would and just as He knew John the Baptist would and everyone whosoever will.
     
    #21 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  2. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately so you are correct brother. It is a works/reward gospel.
     
    #22 Internet Theologian, Jan 20, 2016
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  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Wow salvation by Grace through faith is now considered salvation by works to some. Hmmmmm Ephesians 2:8-9 makes it clear salvation is by grace through faith and not of works.
     
    #23 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    It is this type of lie that so damages your credibility on this forum. You know very well IT does not believe salvation by Grace through faith is salvation by works. But you are so inherently dishonest you just can't resist posting a blasphemous falsehood.

    The problem is your own indefensible false gospel. You insist you believe in salvation by Grace through faith but then write a massive missive defending salvation by works. And what is even sadder than your dishonestly is the monumental willful ignorance that prevents you from understanding your own obvious error.

    If you have to add anything to the finished work of Christ on the cross, your faith, your repentance, your prayer, anything, you preach a false gospel. The good works of faith, repentance, prayer, etc. are the result of regeneration, not the cause of it. But you cannot (or more likely will not) see that simple bible truth. :(
     
    #24 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Where do you see salvation by works in anything I have posted?
     
    #25 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    God looks forward and sees what we do. That's works.
     
    #26 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    You continue to falsely accuse folks and fail to show where it was said.
    Let me go through this again and you show where it states anything about a works salvation.

    in the OP I stated:
    Because God pre-knew Jeremiah and the choices Jeremiah would make before he was in the womb, God Predestined him to be conformed to being a prophet and for us we see:
    So what choices did Jeremiah make, to believe a savior was coming. To have Faith that God would send the promised messiah. Where are there any works in this?

    Now this one:
    God knows us before we are ever born and therefore we are called and predestinated before birth. God does this while giving us volition to make choices for Him or to reject Him, the thing is because of His omniscience He already knows the choices we will make.

    Maybe using thh term choices (plural) instead of THE CHOICE we make to believe on the Lord Jesus. The only choice we can make that God pre-knows is to place Faith in the Savior, for us it is Jesus Christ. Again where do you see works in that statement?
    You misinterpret I said God looks forward and sees the choice we make, that is the choice of believing or rejecting. He sees our choice to receive Christ by Faith or reject based on Him seeing our Faith He predestines us to be conformed to His Son after our Faith has been activated in our life.
     
    #27 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  8. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    Can you show me the Scripture that shows that God predestines a person based on the knowledge of their actions? I've read through the Bible a few times and really just haven't seen that myself.
     
    #28 annsni, Jan 20, 2016
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  9. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    You continue to falsely accuse folks and fail to show where it was said.
    Let me go through this again and you show where it states anything about a works salvation.

    in the OP I stated:
    Because God pre-knew Jeremiah and the choices Jeremiah would make before he was in the womb, God Predestined him to be conformed to being a prophet and for us we see:
    So what choices did Jeremiah make, to believe a savior was coming. To have Faith that God would send the promised messiah. Where are there any works in this?

    Now this one:
    God knows us before we are ever born and therefore we are called and predestinated before birth. God does this while giving us volition to make choices for Him or to reject Him, the thing is because of His omniscience He already knows the choices we will make.

    Maybe using thh term choices (plural) instead of THE CHOICE we make to believe on the Lord Jesus. The only choice we can make that God pre-knows is to place Faith in the Savior, for us it is Jesus Christ.
    Again where do you see works in that statement?

    My post #5-He knew what his heart would be and what his choice for God was.
    Again where is this salvation by works?

    Post #7 "...Theologian of old that states that God knows us through His Omniscience before our conception and because he knows EVERYTHING about us he knows the choices we will make."

    Again maybe it should have been choice (SING) instead of choices (pl). But where is this works?
     
    #29 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    "We make." "Our choice." Works. Salvation is not about us and what we do, make, or choose. Salvation is about Christ and what He did. All of Him, none of us.
     
    #30 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 4:
    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
    13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
    Romans 8:29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

    What does He foreknow, EVERYTHING including our Faith, He is a discerner of the Thoughts and intents of our Heart, HE sees our Faith and He has seen it from the beginning like He did with Jeremiah 1:5, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

    what did HE know about Jeremiah, He saw Jeremiah's Faith and based on that Faith he ordained him a prophet unto the nations.
     
    #31 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So how were you saved? By placing Faith and Trust in Christ, by believing?

    Or some other way?

    Christ made it clear we must believe, John 3:18 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    Believing is a choice that all must make to be saved. Slavation is beliving in the finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ. Having Faith and Paul said we must CALL upon the Lord for Salvation, Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Christ paid the price for our sin and became the only true means of Salvation, but we are saved by Grace and Paul said through Faith. Ephesians 2:
    8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

    The gift of Salvation is there for everyone to have, they must reach out for it in Faith that is by Believing and God knows each and everyone who will make that choice and He has known each and everyone before they entered the womb like Jeremiah 1:5 states.
     
    #32 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I think you may be asking the wrong question. "Can you show me the Scripture that shows that God predestines a person unto salvation based on the knowledge of their actions?"
     
    #33 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I was saved by the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary's cross. The faith and trust in Him that now characterizes my life is the result of His regenerating me. Taking from me the old, rebellious, cold, dead heart of stone and replacing it with with a new, obedient, loving, living heart of flesh.

    Prior to His regenerating me I had no faith. I had no trust. I was His enemy. Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

    Not only doesn't a lost man have faith or trust in Christ, he cannot have such faith or trust. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
     
    #34 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Never is it based on their actions it based on their faith and the Faith they have in Christ. That Faith is what He foreknows and that is the choice they must make as they are drawn by the Holy Spirit
     
    #35 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So if I understand what you are saying we are born saved or lost. We either have built in faith or no faith from birth you appear to be saying.
     
    #36 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    The bible says it is impossible for a lost man to have faith. Therefore your thesis is false.
     
    #37 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  18. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    But I don't see anything in that passage that says that He chose us because of the choices we've made.

    Ephesians 1:3-6 tells us "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Christ Jesus to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His good will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved."

    The passage then goes on in verse 11 to say "In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will"

    I see these verses clearly showing us that God chose us to be blameless and that this choice was according to God's purpose - not ours. It is not OUR choices but God's will that caused us to be predestined.
     
    #38 annsni, Jan 20, 2016
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  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Once again you display either your utter corruption or your utter lack of intellect regarding reading skills.

    Please quote any post where I said I, or anyone else, is born saved.

    Then please post where I said I, or anyone else, has built in faith from birth.

    This is why having a discussion of spiritual things with you is always so fruitless. You absolutely refuse to be honest.

    Here, allow me to try to dumb it down for you. In November the people of the United States will go to the polls and elect the next President of the United States. Late on November 7 or early on November 8th we will have a new President elect. He is elected but not yet President. He will not become President until he takes the oath of office on January 20th.

    Christ elected me unto salvation in eternity past. He died on the cross to purchase my redemption in about 31 AD. He then drew me to Himself and regenerated me in 1974.

    Got it now? Nobody born saved. Nobody with built in faith. Both are the result of regeneration. And that happened in 1974.
     
    #39 TCassidy, Jan 20, 2016
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  20. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    It is based on His Foreknowledge that is what HE knows beforehand. So what did He know about us beforehand?
     
    #40 revmwc, Jan 20, 2016
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