Saving faith...or human trust...?

[Iconoclast]

In the book I was quoting in the other thread on faith I saw this; pg 479,480

• Doctrinal orthodoxy is not necessarily to be equated with saving faith. There are different types of “faith”—and most have nothing to do with saving faith at all. Not only tradition, but the Scriptures themselves describe more than one kind of “belief” or “faith”. Mark the following:

1. A doctrinal faith. A creed, confession, or system of doctrine can be termed a “faith” (Acts 14:2; 16:5; Gal. 1:23; 2 Tim. 4:7). But true, saving faith includes more than doctrinal orthodoxy—it includes a God–engendered trust and commitment (Acts 18:27; Eph. 2:8–10).

2. A merely intellectual faith. This is a “faith” that believes the facts, an intellectual assent to propositional truth or historical facts (Jn. 2:23–25; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Jas. 2:19). While true, saving faith is intelligent and intellectual, it is necessarily accompanied by a God–given commitment


3. A theoretical faith. This is a “faith” that exists in principle only, but is denied in practice—it is not the controlling force or influence in the life and experience (Jn. 2:23–25; 12:42–43; Acts 26:27–28).

4.It is an unreserved, utter commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ—the response of the whole man to the whole Christ (Jn. 1:12–13; 3:161254; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 10:9–10; Eph. 2:8–10).A selective faith. This is a “faith” in Jesus as “savior,” but denying him as “Lord,” i.e., “accepting” his redemptive work without recognizing his person and sovereign rule over the entirety of life. This is a scriptural impossibility (Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9–10, 2 Cor. 4:51251; Rom. 10:14–151252; 2 Cor. 5:14–171253). Salvation does not—cannot—come through “receiving”or “accepting” the “Christ” of one’s own imagination.

5. An emotional or irrational faith. This is a “faith” which derives from an existential or subjective religious experience which is divorced from the truth (1 Cor. 15:1–5). It may well have mere facts rather than the very person and work of Christ as its object.

6.A merely human faith. This is synonymous with mere human trust and is founded upon the faulty theology of man’s alleged “free–will” rather than on Scripture, upon the humanistic premise that “command implies ability” (Rom. 9:16; Eph. 2:8–10).

7. A faith of great claims or display. This is a “faith” which claims great or outstanding credentials or great works, but in reality is deceptive and self–promoting (Matt. 7:21–23). The only objective alignment for any faith is the inscripturated Word of God.

8. An evangelical or Gospel faith.
• It has its proper object—not historical facts, but the Lord Jesus Christ in the fullness and context of his person and work. 5. 6. • •It possesses a distinct and objective character: it is God–engendered, intelligent, has its proper object, is expressed in total commitment, and issues forth in a converted life–style.• This is true, saving faith as expressly revealed and taught in Scripture.


I have found this helpful in that it clarifies different words and kinds of faith...which part to you like best?

 

[JonC]

Hey Icon. What book is this?

(I like the explanation of #7 best, but mostly because it's something I've been studying recently. I think that the deception is not only that those who cry "Lord, Lord" and are met with "I never knew you" appear to be saved but also that these may be self deceived into believing they are).

 

[SovereignGrace]

In the book I was quoting in the other thread on faith I saw this; pg 479,480

• Doctrinal orthodoxy is not necessarily to be equated with saving faith. There are different types of “faith”—and most have nothing to do with saving faith at all. Not only tradition, but the Scriptures themselves describe more than one kind of “belief” or “faith”. Mark the following:

1. A doctrinal faith. A creed, confession, or system of doctrine can be termed a “faith” (Acts 14:2; 16:5; Gal. 1:23; 2 Tim. 4:7). But true, saving faith includes more than doctrinal orthodoxy—it includes a God–engendered trust and commitment (Acts 18:27; Eph. 2:8–10).

2. A merely intellectual faith. This is a “faith” that believes the facts, an intellectual assent to propositional truth or historical facts (Jn. 2:23–25; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Jas. 2:19). While true, saving faith is intelligent and intellectual, it is necessarily accompanied by a God–given commitment


3. A theoretical faith. This is a “faith” that exists in principle only, but is denied in practice—it is not the controlling force or influence in the life and experience (Jn. 2:23–25; 12:42–43; Acts 26:27–28).

4.It is an unreserved, utter commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ—the response of the whole man to the whole Christ (Jn. 1:12–13; 3:161254; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 10:9–10; Eph. 2:8–10).A selective faith. This is a “faith” in Jesus as “savior,” but denying him as “Lord,” i.e., “accepting” his redemptive work without recognizing his person and sovereign rule over the entirety of life. This is a scriptural impossibility (Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9–10, 2 Cor. 4:51251; Rom. 10:14–151252; 2 Cor. 5:14–171253). Salvation does not—cannot—come through “receiving”or “accepting” the “Christ” of one’s own imagination.

5. An emotional or irrational faith. This is a “faith” which derives from an existential or subjective religious experience which is divorced from the truth (1 Cor. 15:1–5). It may well have mere facts rather than the very person and work of Christ as its object.

6.A merely human faith. This is synonymous with mere human trust and is founded upon the faulty theology of man’s alleged “free–will” rather than on Scripture, upon the humanistic premise that “command implies ability” (Rom. 9:16; Eph. 2:8–10).

7. A faith of great claims or display. This is a “faith” which claims great or outstanding credentials or great works, but in reality is deceptive and self–promoting (Matt. 7:21–23). The only objective alignment for any faith is the inscripturated Word of God.

8. An evangelical or Gospel faith.
• It has its proper object—not historical facts, but the Lord Jesus Christ in the fullness and context of his person and work. 5. 6. • •It possesses a distinct and objective character: it is God–engendered, intelligent, has its proper object, is expressed in total commitment, and issues forth in a converted life–style.• This is true, saving faith as expressly revealed and taught in Scripture.


I have found this helpful in that it clarifies different words and kinds of faith...which part to you like best?

Blows 'faith is faith' out of the water, non?

 

[Iconoclast]

Blows 'faith is faith' out of the water, inon?

Some attempts at hiding behind the word faith itself avoid the issue....this link dismantled that false refuge.
This is a helpful lesson for all who welcome it.

 

[Internet Theologian]

The only 'innate' thing I had to offer the Christ of God at conversion was my sin for His pardon. He gave me everything else.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey Icon. What book is this?

(I like the explanation of #7 best, but mostly because it's something I've been studying recently. I think that the deception is not only that those who cry "Lord, Lord" and are met with "I never knew you" appear to be saved but also that these may be self deceived into believing they are).

It is a book called Calvinism. ...Arminianism..
By W.R.Downing...

Found here....SGBCSV....go to the literature section
There are some free downloads. .

This Pastor lectures from the Greek texts ...worth the time to read or listen to.

 

[Iconoclast]

The only 'innate' thing I had to offer the Christ of God at conversion was my sin for His pardon. He gave me everything else.

Likewise....my guilt and shameful rebellion for His love and mercy.

 

[Iconoclast]

It is a book called Calvinism. ...Arminianism..
By W.R.Downing...

Found here....SGBCSV....go to the literature section
There are some free downloads. .

This Pastor lectures from the Greek texts ...worth the time to read or listen to.

I will post the table of contents if I get online later

 

[Iconoclast]

Hey Icon. What book is this?

(I like the explanation of #7 best, but mostly because it's something I've been studying recently. I think that the deception is not only that those who cry "Lord, Lord" and are met with "I never knew you" appear to be saved but also that these may be self deceived into believing they are).

As promised;

Revised Edtion, 2007© 2000Morgan Hill, CA 95037271 West Edmundson AvenuePublished by P.I.R.S. Publications
Delivered as a series of lectures on the nature, history and tenets of both Calvinsim and Arminianism to the congregation of The Sovereign Grace Baptist Church of Morgan Hill, California, on the Lord’s Day afternoons in the years 1999 and 2000 by Pastor W. R. Downing. Lectures on Calvinism and Arminianism;

Table of Content...

scroll all the way down...there is a big space..lol

418–431 A.D. 247411–418 A.D. 246To 411 A.D. 246A Historical Survey Of The Controversy 2469The Secondary Doctrinal Issues 245The Primary Doctrinal Issues 243The Doctrinal Issues 243Augustine 241Jerome 241Julian Of Eclanum 241Coelestius 240Pelagius 239The Predominant Personalities 239The Earlier Writings Of Augustine 239The Differences Between Greek And Latin Christendom 238The Heresies Of Gnosticism And Manichaeism 236Pelagianism Introduced The First Anthropological Controversy 236The Antecedent Factors And Background Of This Controversy 235The State Of Christendom In The Early Fifth Century 235Introduction 234The Pelagian Controversy 234Part III: The History And Doctrines Of Arminianism 234Divine Sovereignty And Human Responsibility 232Persevering Grace Considered Experientially 231Persevering Grace Considered Theologically 216Persevering Grace Considered Scripturally 215An Exposition Of The Doctrine 215The 1689 Baptist Confession Of Faith 214The Canons Of Dort 208The Scriptures 202The Perseverance Of The Saints 202How Does Grace Become Efficacious In The Experience? 200Is Efficacious Grace Ever Resisted? 2008Why Is Efficacious Grace Necessary? 198What Is Efficacious Grace? 196What Is Grace? 196An Exposition Of The Doctrine 195The 1689 Baptist Confession Of Faith 195The Canons Of Dort 191The Scriptures 187Irresistible Or Efficacious Grace 187Particular Redemption Considered Practically 185Particular Redemption Considered Scripturally 183Particular Redemption Considered Theologically 181An Exposition Of The Doctrine 180The 1689 Baptist Confession Of Faith 178The Canons Of Dort 175The Scriptures 170Limited Atonement Or Particular Redemption 170What Is The Relation Of Divine Election Or Foreordination To Christian Experience? 168What Is The Basis Or Foundation Of Divine Election To Salvation? 166In What Context Must Election Be Viewed? 166What Are The Types Of Divine Election Revealed In Scripture? 165An Exposition Of The Doctrine 165The 1689 Baptist Confession Of Faith 164The Canons Of Dort 158The Teaching Of Scripture 154Unconditional Election Or Foreordination To Eternal Life 154Human Inability, Free Will And Responsibility 153The Nature Of Man’s Depravity And Inability 152The Consequences Of The Fall 149The Fall Of Man 149The Original State Of Man Before The Fall 1487An Exposition Of The Doctrine 148The 1689 Baptist Confession Of Faith 147The Canons Of Dort 145The Scriptures 139Total Depravity Or Human Ability 139The Covenant Of Grace And The Doctrines Of Grace 138Every Human Being Is In One Of Two Covenants 137The Covenant Of Grace 133The Covenant Of Works 131Introduction 131Covenant Theology Or The Eternal Redemptive Purpose 131Introduction 130Part II: The Five Points Of Calvinism Or The Doctrines Of Grace 130Summary 129What Is The Witness Of History? 125What Is The Testimony Of Scripture? 124When And Why The Transition From Revival To “Revivalism”? 123What Is “Revivalism”? 122What Is Revival? 122What Are The Various Terms Associated With Revival? 121The “Calvinsitic Traditon” And Revival 121Summary 121The History Of Calvinistic Missions 116The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Missions 116Summary 116The History Of Calvinistic Evangelism 112An Inclusive Approach To Evangelism 112Calvinism Is Evangelistic 111The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Evangelism 1116Summary 111The Sciences 111The Arts 109The “Calvinistic Tradition”: The Arts And Sciences 108Summary 108A Case History Of Education In The “Calvinistic Tradition” 107Christian Vs. State Education 104The History And Significance Of The “Calvinistic Tradition” And State Education 104The Significance Of Calvin In Education 101The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Education 101Summary 101Philosophers In The Reformed Or “Calvinistic Tradition” 100The Opposition Of Humanistic Philosophies And Other Systems To Calvinism 97Calvinism As A Philosophy 95Calvin And Philosophy 95The Christian And Philosophy 95The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Philosophy 95Summary 95Calvinism, Calling And Capitalism 93The Unique Nature Of Calvinistic Economics 92Economic Theories 91The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Economics 91Summary 90Secularization And Social Decay 88The Moral Law And Social Reform 87The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Social Issues 87Summary 87Lawful Authority, Religious Disobedience And Civil Resistance 83Religious Liberty And Civil Rights 81The Relation Of Church And State 80The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Political Issues 795Summary 79America 77England 76Northern Ireland 76Scotland 75The Netherlands 74Eastern Europe 74Germany 73France 72Switzerland 71The “Calvinistic Tradition”: Geographical And Historical Expansion 71Summary 70Common Grace 70The Christian Ministry 69Apologetics 69The Church 67The Moral Law 66The Historic Reformed And Evangelical Confessions And Catechisms 64Election, Predestination And Providence 64Systematic Theology 63The Doctrine Of The Scriptures 63The “Calvinistic Tradition” And Theology 62Summary 62The Key: A Consistent And Inclusive Application Of Scripture 60“Calvinistic” Or “Reformed” Tradition? 60Introduction: What Is Meant By The “Calvinistic Tradition”? 60What Is The Legacy And History Of The “Calvinistic Tradition”? 60The Practical Approach 59A Doctrinal Imbalance 58Supralapsarianism 584The Doctrinal Approach 58The Illogical Approach 57Introduction 57What Is “Hyper–Calvinism”? 56Modifications Of The Truth 56Pajonism Or Congruism 55Amyraldianism 55Arminianism 54Departures From The Truth 54Introduction 54What Is “Moderate Calvinism”? 54Calvinism Considered Inclusively 52Calvinism Considered Soteriologically 49Calvinism Considered Historically 48Calvinism Considered Denominationally 47Calvinism As A System 45Calvinism As An Attitude Or Approach 45Calvinism Considered Essentially 44The Terms “Calvinism” And “Calvinist” 44“Calvinists” Before Calvin 42Calvinism And Determinism Or Fatalism 41The Deciding Issue: Grace Or Works? 41Introduction 41What Is Calvinism? 41Calvin’s Teaching And Preaching Schedule 41Calvin As A Preacher 39Calvin As A Teacher 38Calvin As A Teacher And Preacher 38Calvin’s Qualities As An Interpreter Of Scripture 38Calvin As The Father Of Modern Exegesis 37Calvin As An Exegete And Interpreter 373Calvin And The Reformation Of The Church 36Calvin Was The Great Systematizer Of The Reformation 35The Essence Of Calvin’s Theology 35Calvin As A Theologian 35Calvin’s Letters 34Calvin’s Sermons 34Calvin’s Commentaries 33Calvin’s Treatises 33Institutes Of The Christian Religion 32Calvin As A Humanist Author 32Calvin As An Author 31Calvin And Servetus 31Calvin And Geneva 30Calvin In Relation To The Other Reformers 29Calvin As A Second–Generation Reformer 29Calvin As A Reformer 29Personality And Character 25A Biographical Sketch 23Calvin As A Man 23Who Was John Calvin? 23Part I: The Nature And History Of Calvinism 23Concerning The Bibliography 22The Purpose And Nature Of These Lectures 21The Principles 19The Texts 19Lectures On Calvinism 19Introduction 19Preface 17TABLE OF CONTENTS

 

[Iconoclast]

JonC....if you found the page.....download the free writings and outlines.
I recommend that Baptist Catechism with commentary on that page...he used material from more than 8 historical confessions to compile the data....His commentary is on key greek words....

the table of contents came out upside down, lol...I have little idea what I am doing, lolEekRoflmao

 

[SovereignGrace]

And not one of the opposing side has responded?

 

[JamesL]

In the book I was quoting in the other thread on faith I saw this; pg 479,480

• Doctrinal orthodoxy is not necessarily to be equated with saving faith. There are different types of “faith”—and most have nothing to do with saving faith at all. Not only tradition, but the Scriptures themselves describe more than one kind of “belief” or “faith”. Mark the following:

1. A doctrinal faith. A creed, confession, or system of doctrine can be termed a “faith” (Acts 14:2; 16:5; Gal. 1:23; 2 Tim. 4:7). But true, saving faith includes more than doctrinal orthodoxy—it includes a God–engendered trust and commitment (Acts 18:27; Eph. 2:8–10).

2. A merely intellectual faith. This is a “faith” that believes the facts, an intellectual assent to propositional truth or historical facts (Jn. 2:23–25; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Jas. 2:19). While true, saving faith is intelligent and intellectual, it is necessarily accompanied by a God–given commitment


3. A theoretical faith. This is a “faith” that exists in principle only, but is denied in practice—it is not the controlling force or influence in the life and experience (Jn. 2:23–25; 12:42–43; Acts 26:27–28).

4.It is an unreserved, utter commitment to the Lord Jesus Christ—the response of the whole man to the whole Christ (Jn. 1:12–13; 3:161254; Acts 16:31; Rom. 1:17; 10:9–10; Eph. 2:8–10).A selective faith. This is a “faith” in Jesus as “savior,” but denying him as “Lord,” i.e., “accepting” his redemptive work without recognizing his person and sovereign rule over the entirety of life. This is a scriptural impossibility (Acts 2:36; Rom. 10:9–10, 2 Cor. 4:51251; Rom. 10:14–151252; 2 Cor. 5:14–171253). Salvation does not—cannot—come through “receiving”or “accepting” the “Christ” of one’s own imagination.

5. An emotional or irrational faith. This is a “faith” which derives from an existential or subjective religious experience which is divorced from the truth (1 Cor. 15:1–5). It may well have mere facts rather than the very person and work of Christ as its object.

6.A merely human faith. This is synonymous with mere human trust and is founded upon the faulty theology of man’s alleged “free–will” rather than on Scripture, upon the humanistic premise that “command implies ability” (Rom. 9:16; Eph. 2:8–10).

7. A faith of great claims or display. This is a “faith” which claims great or outstanding credentials or great works, but in reality is deceptive and self–promoting (Matt. 7:21–23). The only objective alignment for any faith is the inscripturated Word of God.

8. An evangelical or Gospel faith.
• It has its proper object—not historical facts, but the Lord Jesus Christ in the fullness and context of his person and work. 5. 6. • •It possesses a distinct and objective character: it is God–engendered, intelligent, has its proper object, is expressed in total commitment, and issues forth in a converted life–style.• This is true, saving faith as expressly revealed and taught in Scripture.


I have found this helpful in that it clarifies different words and kinds of faith...which part to you like best?

I have not looked yet, but I woder if any of these examples of "fake" faith are actually called faith in scripture?

I noticed the example "Lord, Lord..." in Matthew 7, but I've never seen where it is said they have faith

I noticed the citation of James 2:19, but that doesn't say anything about the devil having faith. Is that the extent of his argument? Make examples of those who are never said to have faith?

Also, concerning #4, why does the author use an eschatological passage as an example of real faith?

 

[Iconoclast]

And not one of the opposing side has responded?

If you have noticed...whenever solid material is presented....very few will venture into the water....lol.....they will not, because they cannot.
They have nothing to say....to try and resist these truths which openly will expose the lack of biblical support they have.
Any post more than a paragraph or two they ignore...lol.WinkWinkWink
They cannot help but agree as it is solidly biblical, but they do not want to admit it because they are in combat mode....so in the day of battle they hide like an ostritch....or a turtle in the shell....waiting for the rapture to bail them out...

https://www.bing.com/images/search?...98cc8c64a6fb05dfba4cd523c22d72ado0&ajaxhist=0

 

[agedman]

Using your "tag" line. No one word has caused such an avalanche as the word "faith."

This is one reason for the most part I have somewhat abandoned the use of the word, "faith," and use belief. Although, "belief" may and does get distorted by the abusers, at least I can use the word more pointedly to that which God has provided and causes as the catalyst of change in the heart and mind and expressed with the mouth as confession of belief of salvation occurred. "Faith" is so commonly distorted, that to wade through the tall grass of deception is a tool to distraction by the enemy of the believer witness. By switching words, I can avoid the distractions and better target the listener to the gospel.

 

[JamesL]

If you have noticed...whenever solid material is presented....very few will venture into the water....lol.....they will not...they cannot.
They have nothing to say....try and resist...
They cannot help but agree...solidly biblical...they do not want to admit it....

**yawn**

I guess I'll just drop this off again, since it was apparently "missed" by the high-fivin' amen-corner clique.

I have not looked yet, but I woder if any of these examples of "fake" faith are actually called faith in scripture?

I noticed the example "Lord, Lord..." in Matthew 7, but I've never seen where it is said they have faith

I noticed the citation of James 2:19, but that doesn't say anything about the devil having faith. Is that the extent of his argument? Make examples of those who are never said to have faith?

Also, concerning #4, why does the author use an eschatological passage as an example of real faith?

 

[Iconoclast]

JamesL

**yawn**

Thanks for you contribution to the thread...I remember how you explained that your thoughts are so advanced that regular people like me could not grasp your thoughtsSneaky
You were so right! I never get anything out of any of your posts

I guess I'll just drop this off again, since it was apparently "missed" by the high-fivin' amen-corner clique

Yes I understand....for such a deep thinker as yourself you cannot understand how we like and amen each others postsThumbsupThumbsup
It is simple...we are all sinners saved by grace. We know the Lord who saves sinners just like us, so we have a common salvation and the Spirit teaches us what He has taught to other Christians in times past....

You are too smart to enter in to what we do as we are just average sinners, working people who God has had mercy on......

 

[JamesL]

JamesL


Thanks for you contribution to the thread...I remember how you explained that your thoughts are so advanced that regular people like me could not grasp your thoughtsSneaky
You were so right! I never get anything out of any of your posts


Yes I understand....for such a deep thinker as yourself you cannot understand how we like and amen each others postsThumbsupThumbsup
It is simple...we are all sinners saved by grace. We know the Lord who saves sinners just like us, so we have a common salvation and the Spirit teaches us what He has taught to other Christians in times past....

You are too smart to enter in to what we do as we are just average sinners, working people who God has had mercy on......

So in other words, you like to blow your own self-righteous horn about how your posts are unanswerable, then refuse to answer honest inquiry.

Good job. I'm sure your father is proud of you

 

[agedman]

I have not looked yet, but I woder if any of these examples of "fake" faith are actually called faith in scripture?

I noticed the example "Lord, Lord..." in Matthew 7, but I've never seen where it is said they have faith

I noticed the citation of James 2:19, but that doesn't say anything about the devil having faith. Is that the extent of his argument? Make examples of those who are never said to have faith?

Also, concerning #4, why does the author use an eschatological passage as an example of real faith?

Perhaps this is a valid argument.

However, in listening to preachers and teachers, more often they take the statement someone else made about a reference in which that person applied to "faith" and then using "faith" show that the use was not accurate.

For example:

Preacher Joe waxes eloquently about a passage that doesn't mention faith, but Joe uses the word faith throughout his delivery.

Preacher Fred, having a record of Joe's delivery, takes the same passages as used by Joe and shows that faith was not used in a Scriptural manner applicable to "saving faith" but some other attribute of human generated faith.

So, Fred has come up with a list of "faith."

 

[Iconoclast]

So in other words, you like to blow your own self-righteous horn about how your posts are unanswerable, then refuse to answer honest inquiry.

Good job. I'm sure your father is proud of you

Your....**yawn** was an honest inquiry?

Like I said..... I just cannot get anything from your off topic deep philosophical posts where basically you declare everyone in church history is wrong. Then somehow your one or two sentence offerings right the ship.
The fact remains many who are critical do not engage in the posts when it comes down to it.....

 

[Martin Marprelate]

pg 479,480

Half a million pages? That's what I call a large book! Laugh

1. A doctrinal faith. A creed, confession, or system of doctrine can be termed a “faith” (Acts 14:2; 16:5; Gal. 1:23; 2 Tim. 4:7). But true, saving faith includes more than doctrinal orthodoxy—it includes a God–engendered trust and commitment (Acts 18:27; Eph. 2:8–10).

2. A merely intellectual faith. This is a “faith” that believes the facts, an intellectual assent to propositional truth or historical facts (Jn. 2:23–25; 1 Cor. 2:1–5; Jas. 2:19). While true, saving faith is intelligent and intellectual, it is necessarily accompanied by a God–given commitment

Excellent points, as are the others, but these two especially are what Reformed Pastors need to watch out for within their congregations. A pride in having one's theology right, one's 'i's dotted and 't's crossed, but without a real love for and commitment to the Saviour who rescued us when we were lost in sin and clueless about salvation.