The Nature of Theology

[JonC]

You must think Charles Spurgeon is either an arch-heretic or a closet Catholic.

"Calvinism IS the Gospel, and nothing else."

(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. I: The Early Years)

"The longer I live, the clearer does it appear that John Calvin's system is the nearest to perfection."

(The Forgotten Spurgeon, by Iain Murray)

"Among all those who have been born of women, there has not risen a greater than John Calvin."

(C. H. Spurgeon, Autobiography, Vol. II: The Full Harvest)

Laugh No....I think neither. I used Spurgeon specifically because of those quotes. It often comes up here (or did a while back) with the Calvinism being the gospel thing. I'm passively aggressively nodding to Spurgeon’s sermon "God's will and Man's will" for context.

We all understand the gospel in a subjective and less than perfect way. This is necessary because our understanding itself is subjective and less than perfect. Spurgeon could very well say the Calvinism is the gospel. In that sermon he clarified those natural inclinations that colored his preceptions. To him that understanding and only that understanding was the gospel. But it would be wrong to say that the gospel itself is Calvinism.

 

[TCassidy]

But it would be wrong to say that the gospel itself is Calvinism.

How so?

Does not the gospel teach that, without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

 

[tyndale1946]

TC Said:

Does not the gospel teach that, without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

I agree and not trying to turn this into a Arminian/Calvinistic debate... But all these existed in the written gospel those taught by Jesus Christ and the Apostles, disciples and teachers he set aside to carry on his work on down through the ages... The accusatory finger is pointed at the Calvinist brethren saying this is a Calvinist Theology as opposed to other theologies... No so and as I have said many times in the past Calvin coined TULIP but he did not, no way, ever write the gospel... The 5 points TC laid out are biblical truth and gospel... That to me is the true gospel that put Jesus Christ as our all and all... Anything less than that is the theology of man not of God!... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

How so?

Does not the gospel teach that, without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

Does one have to repent and become a Calvinist to be saved?

 

[TCassidy]

Does one have to repent and become a Calvinist to be saved?

Does it say that anywhere?

 

[tyndale1946]

Does it say that anywhere?

All through the Bible from the Old to the New it is Jesus Christ not John Calvin!... Brother Glen

 

[TCassidy]

All through the Bible from the Old to the New it is Jesus Christ not John Calvin!... Brother Glen

I think you may have misunderstood the question.

 

[JonC]

Does it say that anywhere?

If you are talking about Scripture, absolutely not. But if you are saying that the gospel IS Calvinism, then absolutely. One must repent and believe the gospel (Mark 1:15).

One can say that Calvinism is the gospel because it is a human understanding, a theology, of the gospel message. When one says that the gospel is Calvinism....or Armininism....or the belief of the ECF's ....or Christ Victor, or Penal Substitution, or ....etc.......then they present a false gospel. Personally, I think that a few here do present a false gospel because they present the gospel as their understanding. If you are saying that the gospel is Calvinism then you are saying that one must be a Calvinist in order to be saved OR that one must not believe the gospel in order to be saved.

I suppose the question boils down to whether or not we can say our theology is equal to Scripture. If it is given by God via special revelation, then I would say “yes.” But I don’t think that that to be the case.

 

[TCassidy]

If you are talking about Scripture, absolutely not. But if you are saying that the gospel IS Calvinism, then absolutely.

Okay, let's focus on what I said. I asked 5 questions. How would you answer them?

 

[JonC]

Okay, let's focus on what I said. I asked 5 questions. How would you answer them?

I believe that Scripture teaches all five.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe that Scripture teaches all five.

So you agree with Spurgeon that "Calvinism" is just a nick-name for the Gospel?

 

[JonC]

So you agree with Spurgeon that "Calvinism" is just a nick-name for the Gospel?

Yes, of course. I never disagreed that Calvinism ... or Arminianism, for that matter...are just nicknames for the Gospel.

 

[Van]

Theology is the study of God. We believe that the study of scripture is our best method of studying God.
Neither Calvinism nor Arminianism correctly presents scripture as plainly written. No need to go through that again.

We believe Jesus is God and therefore believe in the Trinity.
We believe God exists eternally, without a beginning or end.
We believe God was not caused by anything and therefore is the uncaused cause of everything.
We believe God is everywhere and is all powerful.
We believe God knows everything He chooses to know, but can also choose not to know things, like the sins He has forgiven. Some deny this truth based on their own theology.

God's justice is sure but sometimes is tempered with mercy. Praise God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ha ha... oh my goodness Tom...great point!

 

[TCassidy]

or Arminianism, for that matter

Does Arminianism teach all five points?

That without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

 

[JonC]

Does Arminianism teach all five points?

That without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

I said Scripture teaches those five points, not that the gospel is those points.
I believe there is only one true gospel and men must repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved. I believe that there are both Calvinist and Arminians who are saved (neither of these flawed understandings exclude one from the Body of Christ).

Do Arminians reject the gospel of Christ? If so, are they saved? If so, how many gospels are out there under which men are saved?

 

[TCassidy]

I said Scripture teaches those five points, not that the gospel is those points.

But that was my question.

I believe there is only one true gospel and men must repent and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be saved.

But what, apart from the 5 points I posted, is the Gospel?

I believe that there are both Calvinist and Arminians who are saved (neither of these flawed understandings exclude one from the Body of Christ).

But the question was do Arminians assert all 5 of the points I made?

Do Arminians reject the gospel of Christ?

That's my question.

If so, are they saved?

You tell me. That was my question.

If so, how many gospels are out there under which men are saved?

Good question. Which gospel? The Arminian gospel or the "Calvinist" gospel? They can't both be right?

So, back to the question:

Do Arminians teach that,

Without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

 

[Internet Theologian]

If so, how many gospels are out there under which men are saved?

Hi Jonc,

I don't think your two 'If so's' that precede this above statement follow or flow into your next 'If so' shown above. You may have gotten 'If so' happy? If not, can you explain how it does because I don't see how it fits?

Also, since I am fully aware of the errors ('flawed understandings' per you) of Arminianism (or so-called) it would be honest of you to not just label Calvinism as flawed, but explain as to why.

I also wish you'd use the Word more often in your interactions.

Of course there is only one Gospel; Galatians 1:8ff. Some say there are two. Scripture disagrees with this false dichotomy.

To so-called or alleged 'Arminians' (who are generally not but are non-Calvinists) to me, and to many others, and I believe according to Scripture as well, preach a truncated gospel message. This message guarantees a person heaven, a retirement in the heavens that is guaranteed on the basis of a prayer too many times.

This is preached instead of preaching the vital need of a Savior who will save them from their sins, and change their life now, Matthew 1:21, Romans 6:1ff of the evidence of sanctification being necessary, Hebrews 12:14; of the necessity of repentance, Mark 1:15, Acts 2:38, Acts 17:30; and the necessity of a change via true conversion, 1 John 1:1ff; 1 Corinthians 5:17. Instead men are guaranteed something wonderful to happen.

When they die.

But nothing transforming has to happen at this point, as evidence of conversion is generally mocked in this 'other gospel' message.

 

[JonC]

But that was my question. But what, apart from the 5 points I posted, is the Gospel?But the question was do Arminians assert all 5 of the points I made?That's my question.You tell me. That was my question.Good question. Which gospel? The Arminian gospel or the "Calvinist" gospel? They can't both be right?

So, back to the question:

Do Arminians teach that,

Without Christ, men are depraved?

Or that man is saved due to no merit of his own?

Or that salvation is only for believers?

Or that grace draws the lost to Christ?

Or that a saved person is preserved unto the end?

Arminianism teaches four of the five....I'm don't see how they would teach the last.

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[preachinjesus]

I'm arriving a bit late but hopefully not too late.

There are several definitions of theology. I understand theology to be the study of God, literally. But more than not we are speaking of systematic theology.

Not necessarily, on that last point, there are other disciplines of theology as TCassidy noted...and some others on top of his. While systematic theology has helpfully provided appropriate categories of theological study, it is not inherently the default method of inquiry.

Systematic theology is a discipline that addresses topics individually and in summary (it utilizes the bible as a whole to develop its doctrines). As such, I believe that theology itself is limited. It is limited to what is being revealed in Scripture. It is limited to our interpretations. It is limited to human reasoning and the capabilities of our finite minds.

It is reasonable to suggest that all disciplines of observation and inquiry are bound by multiple horizons (limitations) of which being human is one of the most difficult to overcome. Our theological inquiry, while grounded in and directed by Scripture isn't limited to what is contained in the 66 books. Other theological disciplines helpfully explore how we can rationally, logically, and evidentially come to knowledge of God when coupled with Scripture. As a note, this is where the discipline of theological prolegomena is helpful.

Another definition holds that theology is revealed by God by special revelation and also by illumination. If this theology is the theology revealed by God then it is objective (it is not swayed by man’s limitation).

God's revelation is, indeed, objective but the challenge is that mankind's observation and interpretation of that revelation isn't so set.

What do you think? Does God reveal through special revelation theology as objective truth? Is there a theological system today that is not subject to the failings of man?

To the first question, undoubtedly. Special revelation has been given and we can encounter that special revelation as we study Scripture. As for the second, there is no discipline or system that is without taint of the limitations of mankind nor the results of the Fall.

Just as a note, I'm also a believer that general revelation also provides us access to the nature and character of God...though not exhaustively.