Universal church - or whatever you want to call it.

[Salty]

IN another thread

Talk about church and most people will say 'we are the church'

So membership to them isn't important.. because they belong to a universal, mystical organisation that never meets, has no services and doesn't teach anything.

Actually, I disagree with that statement.
I have often met with groups - that in themselves are not a "local church" - we do have services - and we do teach!

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have often met with groups - that in themselves are not a "local church" - we do have services - and we do teach!

Why would you not call these groups a church?

 

[Salty]

Why would you not call these groups a church?

Because we represent different local churches - but in a sense - "where two or three are gathered in my name......"

 

[Rob_BW]

Because we represent different local churches - but in a sense - "where two or three are gathered in my name......"

Your opening post made me think of our little chapel in Iraq. It was (unfortunately) temporary, served a revolving "congregation" of US military and contractors, and foreign nationals, all of disparate traditions. There was no membership, confessional statement, or other things one would normally see in a standard, American brick and mortar church. But I reckon we were still a church in every sense of the word.

 

[Salty]

Your opening post made me think of our little chapel in Iraq. It was (unfortunately) temporary, served a revolving "congregation" of US military and contractors, and foreign nationals, all of disparate traditions. There was no membership, confessional statement, or other things one would normally see in a standard, American brick and mortar church. But I reckon we were still a church in every sense of the word.

Usually in a military chapel - they do use the Apostles Creed.

Also, I wanted to mention that I was a member of Baptist churches located off post - when I was stationed in Germany. Same situation - you have a virtual turnover of members every 3-4 years. Of course, unaccompanied personnel and shorttimes may only spend 12-24 months.....

One other thing - we have had people attend our churches - but did not want to join, as they were members of Stateside churches. If you are going to be in Germany from anywhere to 18-48 months - really how often are you going to visit your Stateside church. Yes, I believe in the LOCAL church.

 

[Rolfe]

One other thing - we have had people attend our churches - but did not want to join, as they were members of Stateside churches. If you are going to be in Germany from anywhere to 18-48 months - really how often are you going to visit your Stateside church.

I do not see the problem if it is a temporary relocation, and the plan is to return to the Home Church. Was not for me.

 

[TCassidy]

I do not see the problem if it is a temporary relocation, and the plan is to return to the Home Church. Was not for me.

I pastored in San Diego, a military town if there ever was one, for about 27 years. Our church constitution and by laws forbade dual membership unless you were a college student or active duty military. In those two cases we allowed membership in our church and the person's home church simultaneously. Worked well and never had a problem.

 

[Revmitchell]

Talk about church and most people will say 'we are the church'

So membership to them isn't important.. because they belong to a universal, mystical organisation that never meets, has no services and doesn't teach anything.

Saying we are the church has nothing to do with whether membership is important or not. His/her reasoning is wrong because there is no actual relationship between the two from the beginning.

Saying "we are the church" is simply making a distinction between the body of Christ that He died for and the building in which we go to worship, and the act of worship which should be occurring there.

 

[Rolfe]

Our church constitution and by laws forbade duel membership...

It is said that there is always a story behind every rule. Your Church must have been a tough crowd at offering time before this one was implemented. *laugh*

(Could not let that one pass. )

 

[Rob_BW]

I pastored in San Diego, a military town if there ever was one, for about 27 years. Our church constitution and by laws forbade duel membership unless you were a college student or active duty military. In those two cases we allowed membership in our church and the person's home church simultaneously. Worked well and never had a problem.

Hmm, I might need to bring this up. Being on the backside of Ft. Bragg, we have a pretty high turnover rate ourselves.

 

[TCassidy]

(Could not let that one pass. )

Thanks for picking up on that. It slipped past my proof read. That is the problem with spell check. It was a real word, just the wrong word.

 

[Rolfe]

Thanks for picking up on that. It slipped past my proof read. That is the problem with spell check. It was a real word, just the wrong word.

I have similar problems, though mine seem to mostly be when I get the right word but wrong language. Been better lately, though. *laugh*

 

[JonC]

Because we represent different local churches - but in a sense - "where two or three are gathered in my name......"

The quote “where two or three gather in my name” is, IMHO, much too often taken out of context. The passage in Matthew 18 is speaking of dealing with sin in the church and church discipline. It is not speaking in the context of two or three individuals constituting a local church.

The reason I bring this up is that the local church is not a few Christians gathering to worship and fellowship. It is that, but it is more. It is a community of believers functioning as the “Body of Christ” as active participants in the ministry of reconciliation. It is a congregation being shepherded by a pastor/elder/overseer, equipping the saints (each other), learning and growing. Christianity is a relationship and a religion (it is a personal relationship that entails a corporate response).

 

[Greektim]

The quote “where two or three gather in my name” is, IMHO, much too often taken out of context. The passage in Matthew 18 is speaking of dealing with sin in the church and church discipline. It is not speaking in the context of two or three individuals constituting a local church.

The reason I bring this up is that the local church is not a few Christians gathering to worship and fellowship. It is that, but it is more. It is a community of believers functioning as the “Body of Christ” as active participants in the ministry of reconciliation. It is a congregation being shepherded by a pastor/elder/overseer, equipping the saints (each other), learning and growing. Christianity is a relationship and a religion (it is a personal relationship that entails a corporate response).

THIS!

 

[The American Dream]

The Universal Church has no useful function on earth. The work of the Lord is carried out by local New Testament churches. The UC never held a worship service, preached a sermon, took up an offering, prayed, studied the Bible, sent out a missionary, helped the poor and sick, went on visitation or any other useful function. The UC if for eternity. The idea of hierarchies in Protestant denominations is nothing more than lingering influence of the RCC, as is infant baptism, because it is not in Scripture. Presbyteries, synods, General Assembles are a waste of time, money and effort and do nothing towards telling others about Jesus. The money spent on this nonsense could be used to support missionaries. We were told to go and tell about Jesus. We do not need man made nonsense to stand in the way like the UC, hierarchies, and infant baptism, man made creeds plus countless other things we do that have nothing to do with telling others about Christ.

 

[preachinjesus]

The universal Church (the Church Invisible) is the corporate body of believers in Jesus Christ that will only meet once and never stop meeting afterwards. We will meet at the end of the age, at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Even at Pentecost the universal Church hadn't met.

For a local church to gather, most would note that they have to carry with them some specific distinctives that a group of two or three cannot accomplish by themselves. One of the first is meeting for worship and edification, but also exhortation and accountability. The ordinances should be exercised regularly. Service to each is a part. And, as Revelation 1 points out, they must meet as a group for the purpose of remembering Christ's sacrifice and resurrection.

I agree with those above that note some passages have been ripped out of context, particularly Matthew 18. A local church is a distinct group of believers called to edify each other in the admonition of Christ that goes beyond the fellowship described in Matthew 18.

Good thread!

 

[Salty]

The Universal Church has no useful function on earth. ... The UC never held a worship service, preached a sermon, took up an offering, prayed, studied the Bible, sent out a missionary, helped the poor and sick, went on visitation or any other useful function. ...ther things we do that have nothing to do with telling others about Christ.

And that is why I added on the "or whatever you want to call it" to the title.
I work with two association of churches -
We do have worship services, we have prayer time, we take up offerings to help the poor. Our purpose is to present Christ to our city. There is no hierarchies involved as our group (of several area local churches) is self governing.

 

[rsr]

The Universal Church has no useful function on earth. ... We do not need man made nonsense to stand in the way like the UC, hierarchies, and infant baptism, man made creeds plus countless other things we do that have nothing to do with telling others about Christ.

My opinion is that the universal church does have a function on earth. And I disagree that the universal church is "man-made nonsense."

The concept of the universal church has its basis in scripture or else I would not believe in it. And it is far from a "useless" concept. All believers, no matter how isolated from other churches, are encouraged by the knowledge that they all are part of the body of Christ and share in its blessings — and sufferings — no matter how removed they are from other believers.

Evangelism is certainly a commandment, but it is not the only function of the local church or the universal church. We are to build up and comfort each other, bear each others' burdens and contend for "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." And in that, your belittled "creeds" play an important role.

 

[The Biblicist]

My opinion is that the universal church does have a function on earth. And I disagree that the universal church is "man-made nonsense."

The concept of the universal church has its basis in scripture or else I would not believe in it. And it is far from a "useless" concept. All believers, no matter how isolated from other churches, are encouraged by the knowledge that they all are part of the body of Christ and share in its blessings — and sufferings — no matter how removed they are from other believers.

Evangelism is certainly a commandment, but it is not the only function of the local church or the universal church. We are to build up and comfort each other, bear each others' burdens and contend for "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." And in that, your belittled "creeds" play an important role.

You certainly have a right to your "opinion" but not a right to your own facts. The UIC theory has no Biblical basis. Indeed, it is anti-Biblical in nature and repudiates the Biblical concept of salvation at its most basic level.

Let me ask you a simple question, What is the most basic concept of the lost condition versus the most basic concept of the saved condition? Is the basic concept of either rooted in the day of Pentecost or in the fall of man in Genesis?

In case you don't understand exactly what I am getting at, let me further elaborate. What is your most basic definition of "death"? Is your most basic definition of death rooted in the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 or in Genesis 2:17? What is the solution to your most basic definition of death?

In case you still don't see what I am trying to stir up in your mind, then let me ask you a further question. Who is the source of life, light and holiness and what role does "death" play in relationship to that source?

In case you still don't see what I am getting at, if "death" is "separation" (separaion spiritually, separation from physical substance; separation of whole man from God in Gehenna) and at its most basic level the whole concept of death originates with spiritual separation from God then what is the only solution to spiritual separation if not spiritual union? Finally, is spiritual separation being separated from God as life, light and holiness (Eph. 4:18). Can any fallen human being existing in spiritual separation from God, thus separated from the life, light and holiness of God have any kind of fellowship with God or please God? Once again is this a Genesis problem with a Pentecost solution or a Genesis problem with a Genesis solution obtained by promise? Is being "created in Christ" a Pentecost solution or a Genesis solution for all those chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4; Rom. 8:28-30).

Finally, let me sum up all my questions in one simple question: Has there ever been a time or place or person where salvation has been obtained OUTSIDE of Christ before or after Pentecost?

Your UIC theory demands that either regeneration (Eph. 2:10) or the baptism in the Spirit = is placement spiritually "in Christ" which did not occur until Pentecost. Hence, all fallen human beings prior to Pentecost were SPIRITUALLY OUTSIDE of Christ. Your modus operandi for being "in Christ" is Pentecost coming of the Spirit, either defined as regeneration or baptism (or both) by the Spirit into the mystical body of Christ is it not? That doctrine repudiates the most basic rudiments of Biblical salvation for all Pre-Pentecost people, thus preaching another gospel, another savior, another way of salvation prior to Pentecost than after Pentecost but that is not the united testimony of scripture (Jn. 14:6, Acts 4:12; 10:43; 26:22-23; heb. 4:2; etc.).

 

[Iconoclast]

My opinion is that the universal church does have a function on earth. And I disagree that the universal church is "man-made nonsense."

The concept of the universal church has its basis in scripture or else I would not believe in it. And it is far from a "useless" concept. All believers, no matter how isolated from other churches, are encouraged by the knowledge that they all are part of the body of Christ and share in its blessings — and sufferings — no matter how removed they are from other believers.

Evangelism is certainly a commandment, but it is not the only function of the local church or the universal church. We are to build up and comfort each other, bear each others' burdens and contend for "the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints." And in that, your belittled "creeds" play an important role.

Hello RSR
What you are describing sounds more like ......the Kingdom of God.....containing any saved individuals, rather than any assembly of such persons.
Salvation spreading worldwide on a daily basis is the Kingdom coming to earth, those individuals when they assemble in local churches are then doing what God has designed in obedience to His lawful instructions.