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Featured The Will of God in the Fall of Man II

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by percho, Apr 24, 2016.

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  1. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Genesis 1:27

    At that moment did God turn ownership, of the man over to the man?

    This morning in church, either local or universal, I say, being it wasn't the church I was baptized into, we sang the song, All Hail the Power of Jesus Name.

    Verse two second line, "Ye ransomed from the fall."

    Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 18-20

    When was the ransom foreordained? Was it before,"the fall"?

    Who owned the created man? Who sold him under sin. Who gave the law, "Thou shall not eat of it."

    Was the man going to be ransomed even before he was created? Did God on purpose create the man in a manner which God knew the man would, "fall," and bring the death, for the purpose's stated in 1 John 3:8 and Hebrews 2:14?

    He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
    Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

    Where was the devil when God said, "Let there be Light"?
    Was the devil already on the earth?
     
    #1 percho, Apr 24, 2016
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that we have two choices. Either God created the universe for a purpose and that purpose is being worked out (God’s will is being done) towards that goal or God simply created and is watching to see what happens. In the first understanding God will save a people, His Church, and they will be glorified to be with Him eternally (this is actually a purpose for Creation). In the second understanding, God’s redemptive plan is only what God hopes will happen - if the Fall was not a part of God’s purposes being worked out in Creation but rather a consequence of human decision, then our final state is just as precarious and redemption is reactionary. If this is true, then we are foolish to even consider having faith in God – if God could not keep one man and one woman saved in the Garden then there can be absolutely no assurance that God can keep a great multitude. I think He can.
     
    #2 JonC, Apr 25, 2016
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  3. rigz

    rigz Member

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    The 'glory theory' is not new, everything works out for the glory of God, right?

    Matthew 7:13-14 (KJV)
    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it    .

    Accoding to our Lord and Savior, it seems more will be reprobated than saved. Both these bring glory to God. So, why don't we preach reprobation with the same fervor as salvation?
     
    #3 rigz, Apr 25, 2016
  4. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Because we were not commanded to preach reprobation we were told to "go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you" Matthew 28:19-20a. We are to teach them about Christ and His salvation when they trust in Him we are to baptize them.
     
    #4 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
  5. rigz

    rigz Member

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    Does God elect not to save some?
     
    #5 rigz, Apr 25, 2016
  6. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Is it not clear from scripture that even from the foundation of the world the battle would not be with flesh and blood but that it would be, through flesh and blood, that the battle would be won?

    Through the flesh of, the Word made flesh? And in order for the Word, the last Adam, to be made flesh necessitated the creation in the image of the creator the first man Adam, the living soul? It also the taking from the man the woman through whom the Word would made flesh, the Son of the Living God?

    God, (Word) who at sundry times and in divers manners spake (the Word) in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he (God the Father) hath appointed heir (the Son of God) of all things, by (through) whom also he (God/Word) made the worlds; Hebrews 1:1,2
     
    #6 percho, Apr 25, 2016
  7. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    God elects based on foreknowledge which means to me He foreknew their choice, the thing is we have no such foreknowledge and therefore we are to proclaim the gospel to the lost
     
    #7 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
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  8. BrotherJoseph

    BrotherJoseph Well-Known Member

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    Hi Brother Rigz,

    I never had the opportunity to reply to your post from yesterday on the first thread you started on the same topic as the thread was closed before I could reply. You asked,


    I replied by letting scripture answer your question and quoting, "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).

    I thought by my first post that proved from scripture that it was God's will that man not stay in garden you would be able to infer my answer was yes it was God's will for Adam to eat the fruit, but you asked me the question again. I then answered with Ephesians 1:1that explicitly states, " "according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Ephesians 1:11).", yet you apparently didn't see I was once again answering your question. If God works "all things" after the counsel of His own will, all things includes the fall.

    Now that I have given you an explicit answer to your question, if you with to precede further with me on the discussion of this, I must insist you answer my questions regarding this matter. Does Ephesians 1:11 that says God works "all things" after His own will mean "all things" or "some things"

    Now that I answered your questions, I have a few of my own and hope for an answer. I believe God's will is the first cause of all causes (see Ephesians 1:11 God "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"). Do you believe God's will is the first cause of all causes, if not, what do you believe is? Are there effects without causes, if so give an example?

    What intelligent man, going to build or create something, does not first consult his will as to what he wants it to do? And having determined just what he wants it to do, does he not then engage his wisdom to devise a plan for the making of it so that it will meet and perform the exact demands of his will? Is God less intelligent than man? If what God made (I.E. ADAM) was doing that which He did not will or purpose for it to do, and was leaving undone that which He did will or purpose for it to do, does not His perfection stand impeached by the workmanship of His hand just as truly as man's perfection does when judged by the same rule? If man wouldn't create something knowing in advance that it wouldn't turn out as he intended, why do you think God would with ADAM? That is illogical,

    I look forward to your answers. Also, I do not have much time to post on the forum today, but should starting tomorrow and throughout the rest of the week, thus if there is a delay and I do not respond until tomorrow please understand. Thanks.
     
    #8 BrotherJoseph, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
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  9. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

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    OK...

    Wrong...
     
    #9 Internet Theologian, Apr 25, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2016
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No. The non-believer is already condemned. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
    #10 TCassidy, Apr 25, 2016
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And there is your problem. The bible does not mean what it means to you. The bible means what it means to God.
     
    #11 TCassidy, Apr 25, 2016
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  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Teaching error over and over and over and over and over and over again does not make it correct.
     
    #12 SovereignGrace, Apr 25, 2016
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  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Progenosko as used in Romans 8 per Mounce means to Know beforehand. This word is clearly used in verse 29 and termed forknowledge. Then those whom He Predestinated "prooizo" per Mounce means to predetermine or decide beforehand to foreordained, appoint beforehand. So Those God knew beforehand He "prooizo" Predestinated. Very clear but my statement that it means to me was because I know most of the Calvinist disagree. However, the Greek words are clear in their meaning. God knew beforehand those He predestinated, so for all you who say I have it wrong then what did God know beforehand "progenosko" of those He Prwdestinated to be conformed to the image of His dear Son?
     
    #13 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
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  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So when are you going to stop? Lol
     
    #14 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    So what does Romans 8:29 mean when it states that those He progenosko them He did prooizo? What did He Progenosko about them?
     
    #15 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
  16. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Well I see you finally came around those who believe are not condemned that is they are saved they are regenerated by that belief!
     
    #16 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Once again you demonstrate your complete inability to comprehend simple sentences!
     
    #17 TCassidy, Apr 25, 2016
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  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Once again you have publicly proven you cannot read Greek and are committing a fraud by claiming you can.

    The Greek word is NOT "progenosko" as you wrongly claim. The Greek word is προεγνω (proegno). It is an aorist, active, indicative, third person, singular verb.

    And I highly doubt you even know what that means.
     
    #18 TCassidy, Apr 25, 2016
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  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Once again you miss the humor of the statement or should I say the factiousness of a statement.
     
    #19 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
  20. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Well as stated I went to Mounce this time and progenosko was what he used too, so Mounce wrongly translated it according to you. I see you failed to read my post showing the credit for the definition to Mounce. You really need to learn how to interpret what others say.
     
    #20 revmwc, Apr 25, 2016
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