And if Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, he would have lived forever outside of Christ. That is why God decreed the fall of man. To display His Son as the Redeemer of His ppl, the sheep.
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The Will of God in the Fall of Man II
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BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Crucifixion of Christ
"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" (Acts 2:23)
"27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28)
It was a violation of God's commandments for Herod, Pilate, and the Jews to crucify Christ, but it was God's will ("determinate counsel") for it to be done as evident by the verses above. Also, in Isaiah we read, "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin" (Isaiah 53:10). This was all done so Christ can redeem His people from their sins as "an offering for sin" and so also was it in God's decree for Adam to eat the fruit. Is it evil for God to will such things? Intent is what defines an act as evil. An illustration is if a physician cuts off a mans leg in order to save the man it is not an evil act, but if he cuts off the leg simply to inflict pain it is an evil act. God's will to fulfill His purposes is always just and good and without evil intent as the motive, thus as such anything He wills is always Holy just as He is. It is sinful for man to question His will.
Finally, those these acts were wiled by God, It does not excuse Adam or those who crucified Christ for sinning for in Acts 2:23 we read though it was done according to God's "determinate counsel" it was also at the same time done by "wicked hands". And so similarly in regards to Judas Jesus states, "The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born." (Mark 14:21)
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Rigz,
In regards to if the fall of Adam was in accordance with the will of God, If we admit that God knew what the result would be if He made the world as He did, then we admit He willed these results, or was powerless to prevent them. The first admits His predestination of all things, and the last admits He is imperfect. I go with the former, which one do you go with?
Convince me that Satan out smarted God in the Garden of Even and got sin into the world contrary to God's will, and you, at the same time, destroy my hope of every being free from sin and the power of Satan. For if when there were only two people in the world for God to watch over, and they were not sinners by nature nor by practice, and He was opposed in His will to them ever becoming sinners, and the devil put one over on Him then and deceived them and captivated them and with them their entire offspring, what hope can I possibly have that Satan will not out general God in all his undertakings? In heaven, what assurance have we that we will not again become sinners and fall from our standing and be finally lost, after all, if it happened in the Garden, why could it not happen there too?
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Rigz,
One final question to consider-If God did not “want” sin to enter the world, and the devil did; and God did not “want” any man to ever be a sinner, and the devil wanted all men to become sinners; and God did not “want” sin mixed in any of the affairs of men in this world, and the devil wanted it mixed in all the affairs of men in the world; and God did not “want” any man to ever die and the devil wanted all men to die; does it not look like the devil has out-generaled God in all things up to now and proved himself to be more wise and powerful than God? Some people may rejoice in believing in such a God and such a devil as that, but there is not comfort in it for me.
Again He warns as a Father warns His children. No God didn't want Adam to sin but God knew beforehand that Adam would sin. By that Foreknowledge determined to send His Son to Become the Sacrifice for our sins. God warned not to do it and God's will was for Adam not to eat of that tree.
Let me see my Dad warned my brother not to go surfing on his senior trip. Told him it would be the last thing he would do. My brother had an ear problem the mastoid had been removed and when water entered the ear my brother could black out and would drown. Doctor had told him no swimming that was when he was about 11 and at 18 now he wants to go surfing. This was Mother's day of that year and that was the last time my Dad saw my brother. Did Dad want my brother to go surfing, not at all was it dad's will for him to drown not at all, but by his own volition my brother went surfing that day and here it is almost 46 years later that my brother has been with the Lord Jesus. You see my brother had trusted in Christ and believed that Christ was his savior about a year before this occurred. God in no ways wants us to sin but God allows us to choose what we do.
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Hi again Brother revmwc,
I agree God foreknew Adam would sin, but if He did not will that Adam sin, but knew he would before He made him and God also knew in advance that Adam's sinning would result in the Father having to crucify His Son, then why on earth did God make Adam in the manner He did knowing in advance that # 1-Adam would not perform the way He intended Him to and #2 that in so doing it would cost Him the death of His Son ? That sounds like a very flawed and even deranged creator or engineer to me. Lets think about this for a second from a rational point of view, I think we both would agree no man would make or design something knowing in advance what he was making or designing wouldn't end up working the way he wanted it to, thus why do you believe God would do such a folly and illogical thing in relation to how he created Adam? Such a belief is ridiculous and nonsensical.
1 Peter 1:
"19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"
God foreordained the blood of Christ before the foundation of the world, seems really clear God knew mankind would need to have a savior, therefore He knew Adam would sin. The problem is brotherjoseph you are thinking like a human being first in saying "no man would make or design something knowing in advance what he was making or designing wouldn't end up working" God is not a man. Look at this way, a man designs what he believes will work and upon it not working the way he thought it would, does he give up on his invention, no he begins to tweak it. God knowing man would sin foreordained the fix for the problem before he created man, His plan, have a savior ready to go and die. He would be a God-man whose Blood would cover man's sin. actually pay for it and when man received that sacrifice it would be effective and he would have the flaw corrected and the invention would then be right, that right with and before Him (God).
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
God is not illogical, but He is if one teaches as you do, that God knew in advance Adam would eat the fruit contrary to His will and then in Adam so doing this would result in God unnecessarily crucifying His only begotten Son (After all God would not have to had crucified His Son if He would have only created Adam differently in the first place)! Also, seriously, you believe the atonement was God having a "fix for the problem" that could have been avoided to begin with had He created Adam in a manner in which he would have functioned how He originally wanted him to? Also, sounds like your God is the one like a mere man in that He is in your own words was by sending His Son having "the flaw corrected ". This can only mean His plan needed revision because His creation ended up with a "flaw" (again your own wording in the quote above). If a creation ends up "flawed" (i.e. not performing as the designer orginally intended) it is because of a faulty designer- God forbid to such a belief of God! But I see why you teach such a God, the reason you maintain such a doctrine is of necessity to erect your false idol of the god called "free will of man".
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Bottom of post 34. Did anyone read or address post 34? Answer, No. Why? --- Why was Adam created?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Was Adam necessary for that in bold, in the fullness of time, to come to pass. Just where was the woman, Mary, the virgin, going to come from? What law was he going to be manifested under?
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14
The children. What children? The children of the, what is man, of verse 6, Adam.
What was necessary to take place relative to Adam and his children in order for that in bold in verse 14, to come to pass?
? A law. Transgression of that law. Sin. The death, of which the devil had the power thereof. ? Was it necessary for Adam and his children to be subjected to. the death, in hope, in order for devil and his works, including the death, to be destroyed?
Where was the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan when God said, "Let there be Light"? And six days later created Adam in his own image. Where was he?
Why was Adam created?
A couple more questions. All please answer. What man did God appoint the heir of all things? Adam or the only begotten Son who in the fullness of time was born of woman, born under the law? From Heb 2:8,9 But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus. Was Adam the heir or the joint heir?
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8
Was Adam necessary for that in bold, in the fullness of time, to come to pass. Just where was the woman, Mary, the virgin, going to come from? What law was he going to be manifested under?
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Hebrews 2:14
The children. What children? The children of the, what is man, of verse 6, Adam.
What was necessary to take place relative to Adam and his children in order for that in bold in verse 14, to come to pass?
? A law. Transgression of that law. Sin. The death, of which the devil had the power thereof. ? Was it necessary for Adam and his children to be subjected to. the death, in hope, in order for devil and his works, including the death, to be destroyed?
Where was the great dragon, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan when God said, "Let there be Light"? And six days later created Adam in his own image. Where was he?
Why was Adam created?
A couple more questions. All please answer. What man did God appoint the heir of all things? Adam or the only begotten Son who in the fullness of time was born of woman, born under the law? From Heb 2:8,9 But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus. Was Adam the heir or the joint heir?
Let's see God was surprised and had to hurry to make a plan for man's salvation because as you say He created a perfect being (man) and man failed shocking God so then God had to form a plan. Except the bible says Christ Jesus was foreordained to be the Savior. So why was He foreordained to be the savior if God had no idea Adam would fall?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
LOL! BrotherJoseph said no such thing. You're misunderstanding and misrepresenting again. You do this when you quote commentary, theologians and when you quote others on BB as well. Scripture included.
Do you not see that in the underlined and bold above that BJ is taking YOU to task, and is NOT teaching what he believes, but what YOU are saying? Apparently not! How do you continuously get things so out of order?
Excellent! You should ask more questions and learn from others on here and it is needful. Great starting point for you.
Please do not post blasphemy on the forum. Neither post false claims regarding what others have said. Shame on you.
where did I do any such thing? Have other moderators and administrators tell me where I blasphemed are wasn't asking a question? So what you are saying is a question form
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
The above is why I say there is this comeback with a confused and incoherent response used way too often in order to jump a hurdle for the sake of convenience.
IMO it is a disrespectful way to respond to an important issue and is merely a cop out and an attempt to avoid where others have clearly shown error.
It get's really old and it is a tactic oft' used.
In my way of speaking saying "so you" or let's (let us) see forms a question.
No. A question ends with a question mark (?).
It was meant as a question and asked like a question in my writing it. The intent was there if it came out wrong then sorry. [False accusation against staff member edited.]
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Fine. Be a little more careful about what you are posting in the future.
So you believe it needs a question mark?
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