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Justification

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The Biblicist

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It is simplistic, but not unbiblical. You are relying on your own "wisdom" and reasoning. But God has chosen those simple things to confound such wisdom.
You are surely welcome to your own unsubstantiated opinons regardless of what they may be.



Earlier in the conversation you and Martin were criticizing fifteen centuries of believers,

Pardon me? Where did I every mention such in our previous discussions? I mentioned nothing but Biblical writers and scripture period! You are confusing what others may have said with me. Please don't do that.


to include men who rejoiced in the faith as they were drug to their own crosses, covered in tar and burned to death for their faith, simply because they did not hold to Penal Substitution Theory. I look at us today, sitting behind computers arguing the finer points of a faith that would for many crumble if it meant giving up a home or a vehicle…..yet we denounce the views of men and women who had faith strong enough that they sang songs as they were burned alive. “Reject our theory of atonement and your faith will crumble”….nonsense, rubbish, and heresy by historical evidence alone.

Heretics are just as willing to die for their error as faithful are to die for those. This is hardly a ground to justify either by willingess to suffer for their faith. However, it is scriptural grounds to identify the persecutor as a heretic and part of apostate Christianity.
 

JonC

Moderator
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Wrong on both counts. My position of the atonement has nothing to do with the Reformers or the Reformation or with secular records but with a person study of Scripture. For example, have you ever once seen me quote anyone outside of scripture to support any aspect of my belief on the atonement? .
I am not talking about dogmatically following someone else. I am saying that your view incorporates views that were not developed until the reformation , yet you seem not to recognize that influence in your studies. For example, the idea that a man can be "punished" in another's stead was developed by Aquinas. It was refined later by the Reformers to mean a man can "experience the punishment" of another without it being unjust. Before that time, aspects of penal and substitution did not align itself to such a theory that you automatically read in Scripture.

I'm not saying your conclusions here are wrong, but I am saying you don't seem to recognize that the presupposed worldveiw you have taken into Scripture.
 

JonC

Moderator
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Pardon me? Where did I every mention such in our previous discussions? I mentioned nothing but Biblical writers and scripture period! You are confusing what others may have said with me. Please don't do that.
I won't.
I agree with Martin on this. Repudiation of penal substitutionary atonement, if one is consistent in that repudiation, will lead them to absolute apostasy. However, not all who reject penal substitutionary atonement are consistent in their repudiation of it. One error always leads to another error if one is consistent with the error they have embraced.

One can be genuinely saved but mentally/doctrinally led astray. However, the salvation of the deceived does not justify their errors just because that error is continued among the saved.
 

The Biblicist

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Yes, I do. It is in your explanation and worldview presented throughout this thread. Much of your explanation has been dependent on a philosophical answer Thomas Aquinas developed regarding the atonement (not that you hold his view, mind you, but that your reasoning is linked to his conclusions). But you hold that "as" scripture.

That is your pure imagination at work. I have never even read Acquinas. I tell you the truth that my views are strictly and only a result of Biblical studies - period. For example, who did I quote outside of Scripture to support anything I said? Answer - Nobody!
 

The Biblicist

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I am not talking about dogmatically following someone else. I am saying that your view incorporates views that were not developed until the reformation

What presumption! You have concluded such views are not Biblically based by this very accusation. The views I presented were developed by the Apostle Paul and my defence of those view are restricted to him and his wording alone - Period!


For example, the idea that a man can be "punished" in another's stead was developed by Aquinas. It was refined later by the Reformers to mean a man can "experience the punishment" of another without it being unjust. Before that time, aspects of penal and substitution did not align itself to such a theory that you automatically read in Scripture.

This is absurd! It is found in the very typology of the Old Testament sacrifical act and langauge describing it. It is found in the Pauline words "died FOR" his people Your very accusation declares you do not believe in any Biblical basis for substitutionary atonement or that anyone who read Paul within the first century could not gather that from his own wording and study of Old Testament typology. Your accusations are simply absurd.
 

JonC

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That is your pure imagination at work. I have never even read Acquinas. I tell you the truth that my views are strictly and only a result of Biblical studies - period. For example, who did I quote outside of Scripture to support anything I said? Answer - Nobody!
Brother....you are missing my point, and I apologize if it is that I have not stated it more clearly. I did not say you read Acquinas. I did not say that you read Calvin, or Owen, or Gill (in fact, based on this thread I believe you do not). I am saying that you are bringing those ideas and thoughts into scripture because we reason out things in a similar manner.

The first century had a different worldview than did the sixteenth century. You are taking doctrinal stances from the Reformation as presuppositions. We all do this to a degree...surely at least you can recognize that point.
 

JonC

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Heretics are just as willing to die for their error as faithful are to die for those. This is hardly a ground to justify either by willingess to suffer for their faith. However, it is scriptural grounds to identify the persecutor as a heretic and part of apostate Christianity.
We are talking about men like Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Origen, Ignatius, Jan Huss, Jerome, Felix Manz, George Blaurock.....Are you really going to take the stand that those who did not believe PST are heretics, or that one's salvation depended on not being a member of a particular church, or that every Christian who died before PST was formulated by the Reformers are in reality apostate?
 

JonC

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Again, you are reading into my point of agreement what is simply not there. I agreed with Martin concerning the Biblical PRINCIPLE regardless of when or to whom you may apply it.
Oh....my apologies. You were disagreeing with what he had said but agreeing in "principle". Yes, I agree that error begets error. But no, Martin was wrong that those fifteen centuries of believers who denied PST were of a weaker faith that would "crumble".
 

The Biblicist

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Brother....you are missing my point, and I apologize if it is that I have not stated it more clearly. I did not say you read Acquinas. I did not say that you read Calvin, or Owen, or Gill (in fact, based on this thread I believe you do not). I am saying that you are bringing those ideas and thoughts into scripture because we reason out things in a similar manner.

In other words you are saying it is impossible to obtain such thoughts from the Biblical writers themselves and their own language? If that is the case then the thoughts of Acquinas, Owen and Gill are heretical and unbiblical according to your own reasoning behind this accusation!

You are wrong, my thoughts were formulated by a careful study of Paul's langauge. It is impossible to bring the "thoughts" of other men whom you have never read!

The first century had a different worldview than did the sixteenth century. You are taking doctrinal stances from the Reformation as presuppositions. We all do this to a degree...surely at least you can recognize that point.

I refuse to interpret scripture any other way than by contextually development and defintion in accord with sound Biblical principles of interpretation. I and God alone know how I obtained my own views of Romans 3:24-5:2 and you do not. Apparently you are confessing your own method of how you obtained your views of these passages. Please don't make your experience my experience.
 

The Biblicist

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We are talking about men like Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Origen, Ignatius, Jan Huss, Jerome, Felix Manz, George Blaurock.....Are you really going to take the stand that those who did not believe PST are heretics, or that one's salvation depended on not being a member of a particular church, or that every Christian who died before PST was formulated by the Reformers are in reality apostate?

Like I told you, I discern true from false within the pages of secular history by how it conforms or does not conform to Biblical Christianity. Obviously there are things contained within secular history that I agree conforms to Biblical Christianity as opposed to things that do not. Why try to interpret my words to only one extreme?
 

The Biblicist

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Yes. That is what I am saying.
In other words you are denying that terms like "penal" and "substitutionary" and "active" and "passive" are not equivilent THOUGHTS expressed in other Biblical terms such as dying "for" or "in the place of "another as visualized in the levitical sacrifices. Or that dying due to violating law is not equivilent to "penal" death? In other words, your argument rests completely on the form of words rather than their equivilent meaning to Biblical language and types? If Paul did not use these exact form of terms then he did not express his thoughts expressed in Biblical terms?

Don't you realize that language is in flux and translation and interpretation by its very nature requires the use of other forms of words to express equivalent thoughts expressed by the Hebrew and Greek terms? The very challenge of interpretation is to find the best expression in words of your own language which requires different forms than found in the Biblical text that will express it in your language.
 

JonC

Moderator
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In other words you are saying it is impossible to obtain such thoughts from the Biblical writers themselves and their own language? If that is the case then the thoughts of Acquinas, Owen and Gill are heretical and unbiblical according to your own reasoning behind this accusation!

You are wrong, my thoughts were formulated by a careful study of Paul's langauge. It is impossible to bring the "thoughts" of other men whom you have never read!
No, brother. Their thoughts are not "unbiblical" but they are not scripture. You reject their ideas, and that is not necessarily a rejection of Scripture. But what we are speaking of is not revealed in Scripture. What we are speaking of are our theories of "how".

If you think that your thoughts were formulated by a careful study of Paul's language apart from presupposed thoughts and ideas and worldviews, then you are sadly mistaken. Here is your example:

Penal Substitution Theory was a refinement of Aquinas’ refinement (what I view as “divine penance”) of Anselm’s theory. Anselem’s was a “correction” of the prevailing ransom theory which held God paid a “ransom” to Satan. But Ransom Theory itself did not mean God paid a ransom to Satan. It had grown to that definition by most churches of the eleventh century (and was Origen’s view), but other’s held that view differently. It was a take on the Christus Victor (which is the most common and most historical position) motif.

Take the time, brother, to learn of the thoughts you bring into your understanding. I believe it will benefit you, not necessarily in what you accept but in the way you denounce other positions. Your view is, historically, relatively new (although aspects of that position are woven throughout history).
 

JonC

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In other words you are denying that terms like "penal" and "substitutionary" and "active" and "passive" are not equivilent THOUGHTS expressed ....
....except that I said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that penal and substitution are implied in the word "atonement" and present in the other theories.
 

JonC

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Don't you realize that language is in flux and translation by its very nature must use different form of words and the job of the translator and interpreter is to express Biblical language into the current language of the interpreter and reader????
Then take Greek. Thumbsup
 

The Biblicist

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Oh....my apologies. You were disagreeing with what he had said but agreeing in "principle". Yes, I agree that error begets error. But no, Martin was wrong that those fifteen centuries of believers who denied PST were of a weaker faith that would "crumble".

If you will honestly evaluate what I said, it is clear I was agreeing only with Martin in principle without any reference to any historical figures. Indeed, I made it abundantly clear that it was the PRINCIPLE I was agreeing with - just read what I said.
 

The Biblicist

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....except that I said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again that penal and substitution are implied in the word "atonement" and present in the other theories.
Hence, the implication in the word itself does not necessitate that one must borrow the thought from later theologians!!!!!
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
You simply don't get it! Unless your native language is Greek you can't take Greek but must translate it into your native tongue which by nature requires OTHER WORD FORMS.
No, that's not true. I took Greek in seminary, and I can think of Greek words that I couldn't really translate into my own language. I know German, and when I see or hear a word I do not think of it in English (maybe I did when learning the language....but not now).

Regardless, my point is that you bring into scripture an understanding and worldview that has been influenced by extra-biblical sources. You have proven my point here with the translation issue.
 
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