The Baptism With the Holy Ghost

[Darrell C]

A couple of forums I have been on recently centered on a discussion of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (related to "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost") and in light of the recent threads discussing "baptism" I though it might be good to start a thread to see how the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is understood by those here.

Just to set the stage for discussion I will give some options for this Baptism in a poll, and say in advance that I don't have a lot of time right now due to a busy workload and current projects I am working on, but, hope to return to this periodically as I can, and eventually hope to get the chance to join in on the discussion in full.

Secondly, an important question is...when does this take place? I was surprised to find the beliefs of a number of Protestant/Reformed brethren in regards to this.

So, Baptist brothers, what is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (Spirit)?


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

"None of the Above."

 

[Darrell C]

"None of the Above."

I can assure you it is indeed one of the above, and am confident I can present the Scripture to affirm that assertion.

However, I would be more than glad to hear your definition of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.


God bless.

 

[rlvaughn]

Darrell, I look forward to your presentation on the topic. With Bro. Cassidy, I would not choose any of the four statements to describe my belief on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, I look forward to your presentation on the topic. With Bro. Cassidy, I would not choose any of the four statements to describe my belief on the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.

Could you give a brief summation of how you understand the Baptism with the Holy Ghost?


God bless.

 

[rlvaughn]

Darrell, I'm about to log off, and brevity isn't my strong suit! So, for now, let me copy and paste something I wrote elsewhere. It was related to the Baptism or the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, so it is not a direct answer to your question, but maybe will suffice for now to give you a little flavor of what I think about it. Briefly, I think the outpouring on Day of Pentecost and the bringing in of the Gentiles (Acts 11:15-16) fulfill "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" prophecy terminology.

"John the Baptist prophesied of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Jesus, right before His ascension, promised that it would be "not many days hence." The day of Pentecost saw the fulfillment and it was accompanied by speaking in tongues. The preponderance of evidence in the book of Acts shows that events described as the filling and receiving of the Holy Spirit were not usually accompanied by this manifestation. But some people have inferred that because tongues was associated with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, all subsequent initial events regarding receiving the Holy Ghost must also be accompanied with a manifestation of tongues. The evidence does not support that. The event on the day of Pentecost was so singular that only the bringing in of the Gentiles is held in similar regard - "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

"Note: I Cor. 12:13 mentions "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..." There is considerable debate and disagreement over whether this is the same as the above baptism of the Holy Ghost or something different. Suffice it to say, for the purpose of this study, whether it is the same or different there nevertheless is no demanded speaking in tongues that must accompany it."

 

[Craigbythesea]

None of the above.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, I'm about to log off, and brevity isn't my strong suit! So, for now, let me copy and paste something I wrote elsewhere. It was related to the Baptism or the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues, so it is not a direct answer to your question, but maybe will suffice for now to give you a little flavor of what I think about it. Briefly, I think the outpouring on Day of Pentecost and the bringing in of the Gentiles (Acts 11:15-16) fulfill "Baptism of the Holy Ghost" prophecy terminology.

"John the Baptist prophesied of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost. Jesus, right before His ascension, promised that it would be "not many days hence." The day of Pentecost saw the fulfillment and it was accompanied by speaking in tongues. The preponderance of evidence in the book of Acts shows that events described as the filling and receiving of the Holy Spirit were not usually accompanied by this manifestation. But some people have inferred that because tongues was associated with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost on the day of Pentecost, all subsequent initial events regarding receiving the Holy Ghost must also be accompanied with a manifestation of tongues. The evidence does not support that. The event on the day of Pentecost was so singular that only the bringing in of the Gentiles is held in similar regard - "And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?"

I would agree for the most part with what you say here, though as you say it was brief and a topic of this importance deserves an in-depth examination. This is why I generally start threads with questions to open up discussion, rather than simply posting a statement on the issue, because few will bother to read it. However, if we challenge our brothers and sisters on issues that most will consider basic, there is usually no end to antagonists and discussion is far more interesting, lol.

The correlation of speaking in tongues is an important element of this discussion, but, I think if we properly understand what the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is...it puts to silence the objections of our charismatic brethren. I know this because I have seen it numerous times. This topic will address Salvation, Baptismal Regeneration, Tongues, and the condition of salvation in the Old Testament.

"Note: I Cor. 12:13 mentions "by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body..." There is considerable debate and disagreement over whether this is the same as the above baptism of the Holy Ghost or something different. Suffice it to say, for the purpose of this study, whether it is the same or different there nevertheless is no demanded speaking in tongues that must accompany it."

Many will view Paul's statement as a reference to water baptism, and I was surprised to learn that a number of Protestant groups are not so far different from the Catholic view concerning water baptism. I think understanding the Baptism with the Holy Ghost helps dispel some notions some of our brethren, whether modern or historically, have held and hold. Misunderstanding has led to the growth of Charismania, and left many in confusion concerning the singular Baptism which saves.

You rightly identify the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as prophesied by John, and he is quoted by Christ, Paul, and Peter in Acts. In those quotes, in view is the fact that John's Baptism is contrasted with Christ's Baptism. It must be remembered that this Baptism has One Baptizer...and that is always Christ.

Consider:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Two important elements to understand:

1. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost was promised by the Father (found in the Old Testament);

2. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost was taught directly by Christ Himself (found in the New Testament).


We also again point out that at this time is was not yet accomplished (v.5).

So we ask the questions, where did the Father promise this, and where did Christ teach the disciples about this. When we answer those question, we are well on our way to a Biblical definition of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. And we can scratch Option 2 from the poll as a possible correct answer, which would also scratch the assertion that speaking in tongues holds a correlation to the Baptism with the Holy Ghost itself.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

And I too am out of time, so I will share another indication of what it means to be Baptized with the Holy Ghost from Acts (and the following quote may seem long but it will take only a minute to read):





Acts 10:39-48

King James Version (KJV)


39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.



This could be dissected in greater detail, but my purpose in quoting it is to point out that this is a popular passage that is used by many for many differing reasons, but we can see several controversial issues within the passage (speaking in tongues, water baptism, the pouring out of the Holy Ghost).

What I will simply say at this point is that we see Peter preach the Gospel, these men believe, and they are saved. They do speak in languages, even as many did on the Day of Pentecost (and we keep in mind in that discussion that these were known languages), and they are water baptized, but, that is not what is important.

Now I am going to jump to Peter summing up these events, and you can tell me if you have noticed this before (in the context of he current discussion):



Acts 11:12-18

King James Version (KJV)


12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.


We can take from this that in view is...these folks being saved, right? Keep that in mind as we go:



15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.


Here we see the second quote of John's prophecy. We see that the "holy Ghost falling on them" is immediately defined as being Baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Again, look at v.14. In view is their salvation, not an empowering, not an infusion of spiritual gifts, not a "second blessing" or subsequent event to salvation (and with that I have left only Option One of the Poll open as a possibility).


17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.



Lastly we see that in view is Gentile Inclusion.

In view is that Gentiles are saved the same way Jews are. These Gentiles are made alive in Christ at this time, and that, my friend, is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

We see this consistently in Scripture, both in Christ's teachings, as well as that of the Apostles.

Consider this verse in that context:


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)


38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)



Now look at another teaching of Christ concerning eternal life bestowed through the Promised Spirit:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.



We understand that men who do not have the Spirit do not belong to God. We understand men are born separated from God, and it is the "re-union," so to speak, of God and man in this eternal indwelling whereby man is reconciled by God.

Consider this verse in that context and tell me if you have considered it in such a context:



Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Unless we are placed into Christ, which is synonymous with being placed into God, or into the Spirit, then we are not "saved" in a New Covenant sense. This was, as we saw, the promise of the Father and the teaching of Christ.

And because so many have redefined the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, errors in regards to the gifts of God get confused with the Gift of God, which is eternal life through Christ. When we are immersed into God we receive eternal life, because we are in Him Who is Eternal.

And that is all the time I have today, so far as I know, lol, and hope it makes sense.

Hope you, and all here, have a blessed Memorial Day, and that we remember the sacrifice many men and women have offered up that we might have the freedom to openly discuss our beliefs in public.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

None of the above.

Hello Craig. enjoyed a number of your responses in the baptism thread, and would now invite you to, seeing you disagree with the list of the poll, to offer up that option I have seemed to overlook, lol.

Look forward to your definition of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

I have also given a brief post on the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, and likewise invite you to critique.


God bless.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I have in my personal library 36 books on Pneumatology, including Frederick Dale Bruner’s 1970 monograph, A Theology of the Holy Spirit: The Pentecostal Experience and the New Testament Witness. The bibliography in this 390-page monograph is 31 pages long—very well attesting to the thoroughness of Brunner’s research, and the finding of the research is that the subject is highly complex and subject to interpretation. The other 35 books on Pneumatology in my personal library also attest to complexity of the subject.

 

[Darrell C]

I have in my personal library 36 books on Pneumatology, including Frederick Dale Bruner’s 1970 monograph, A Theology of the Holy Spirit: The Pentecostal Experience and the New Testament Witness. The bibliography in this 390-page monograph is 31 pages long—very well attesting to the thoroughness of Brunner’s research, and the finding of the research is that the subject is highly complex and subject to interpretation. The other 35 books on Pneumatology in my personal library also attest to complexity of the subject.

But what I would like to know is your findings from Scripture what the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is.

As far as a topic being "subject to interpretation," while everything is, that does not mean that the "findings" which vary so drastically can all be right. We should be able to conclude on this from Scripture, wouldn't you agree?


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

A couple of forums I have been on recently centered on a discussion of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (related to "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost") and in light of the recent threads discussing "baptism" I though it might be good to start a thread to see how the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is understood by those here.

Just to set the stage for discussion I will give some options for this Baptism in a poll, and say in advance that I don't have a lot of time right now due to a busy workload and current projects I am working on, but, hope to return to this periodically as I can, and eventually hope to get the chance to join in on the discussion in full.

Secondly, an important question is...when does this take place? I was surprised to find the beliefs of a number of Protestant/Reformed brethren in regards to this.

So, Baptist brothers, what is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (Spirit)?


God bless.

I would see it as being when Paul stated to us that when we were saved and born again, at that very moment, as part of the process, we were united with jesus in a real spiritual sense, and placed by the Spirit into union with Him and in union with the saved, the church Universal...
Being raised in pentacostal church, and knowing their views, reflected it as being a second act of grace after salvation, as evidenced with speaking in tongues...

 

[Darrell C]

I would see it as being when Paul stated to us that when we were saved and born again, at that very moment, as part of the process, we were united with jesus in a real spiritual sense, and placed by the Spirit into union with Him and in union with the saved, the church Universal...
Being raised in pentacostal church, and knowing their views, reflected it as being a second act of grace after salvation, as evidenced with speaking in tongues...

Thanks, Yeshua1, for addressing the OP and giving your understanding, which I would agree with.

It is also helpful that you have an understanding of how it is taught by (many) Pentecostals.

This is why the option of "being immersed into God" was given. It is just my view that understanding this clears up a number of misconceptions taught by many groups in regards to what this Baptism is. That it is a "second act of grace" makes little sense, as this is dividing the Spirit of God and minimizing this Baptism to basically an empowerment, something the disciples experienced (as did numerous Old Testament Saints) when empowered to preach the Gospel, heal, and cast out demons. It makes the "Spirit" in view to be a power, or a force, rather than the Person of God.

Thanks for the response.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

What many need to do on this subject would be to actually just apply the truth of the scriptures, as it plainly states to us that we have one indwelling, at salvation, and many infllings/refillings of Him...

That is where Charasmatics err here, as they confuse the Bible to be saying 2 distinct acts by God, but all part of the same process, as we need to daily keep being refilled by the Holy spirit, which i take to mean that we keep submitting to the Holy Spirit on a continual basis...

 

[rlvaughn]

I would agree for the most part with what you say here, though as you say it was brief and a topic of this importance deserves an in-depth examination. This is why I generally start threads with questions to open up discussion, rather than simply posting a statement on the issue, because few will bother to read it. However, if we challenge our brothers and sisters on issues that most will consider basic, there is usually no end to antagonists and discussion is far more interesting, lol.

The correlation of speaking in tongues is an important element of this discussion, but...

Darrell, for the sake of time, I copied that from a series of blog posts on tongues -- HERE -- so that is why it is more focused on tongues. I am reading your posts and will hope to comment later.

 

[Aaron]

My thoughts:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


1. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit. It is not the Spirit's baptizing us into the body of Christ.

2. It is not the same as regeneration, as there were those who had faith in Christ because of John's preaching, and were alive in Christ because of that faith, and that faith is also a work of the Spirit.

3. It is the work of Christ, and of Him alone.

4. It is manifest by extraordinary faith and boldness in the face of opposition or "fire," and, if God deems necessary, but not always, miraculous signs.


This, of course, is a terse and basic outline and not at all exhaustive, and it doesn't deal with every nuance and facet of meaning. The Spirit is a Person, and a Person who is given to us, and Who is present and active in the life of a believer. Just as the Father and the Son are manifest is various ways, so is the Spirit, and the believer's experiences with and in Him.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell, for the sake of time, I copied that from a series of blog posts on tongues -- HERE -- so that is why it is more focused on tongues. I am reading your posts and will hope to comment later.

I did take a look at it, but the focus of the study is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. We agree our charismatic brethren err in regards to the gift of languages, and that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost speaks of more than simply empowering of the believer, which we see had taken place prior to Pentecost, in that the disciples were empowered to preach the Kingdom Gospel, heal, and cast out demons (and felt confident about calling down fire, lol).

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

My thoughts:

Thanks, Aaron, appreciate greatly the contribution to the discussion, this gives us something to open it up with.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

And this is, in the New Testament, where I think we should start with our understanding of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

A couple things to consider in John's Prophecy would be...


1. Christ is the Baptizer;

2. He Baptizes with Spirit (salvation, "gather the wheat into the garner");

3. He baptizes with fire (judgment (burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire);

4. This is a prophetic utterance, meaning it was not yet occurring.


As shown in the previous post, in Acts 11:12-18 Peter correlates the receiving of the Spirit (the Spirit fell on them) with salvation, quoting Christ Who quoted John. The contrast is between the baptism John effected, in which men professing repentance came to publicly assert that repentance had taken place (which was not the case of those refuse baptism because their lives did not evidence repentance), and the Baptism Christ would perform.

1. The baptism of the Holy Spirit is the baptism WITH the Holy Spirit. It is not the Spirit's baptizing us into the body of Christ.

While because we know the Spirit is God Himself, we would be correct to say the "Spirit baptizes men into Christ," the terminology is specific, that Christ is the Baptizer. What we can say is that when men are saved, they are eternally indwelt by God, and thus are placed into God. We do not differentiate an extreme concerning the Persons of God, because we see that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost all reside within us:

John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)


16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

However, we have to maintain what Scripture teaches, thus we see that the Baptism with (and you rightly point out with) the Holy Ghost is Christ immersing men into Himself.

This is the promise of God:



Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Note Christ's statement here:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


The disciples, when Baptized with the Holy Ghost, receive the Promise of the Father which they heard of Christ.

We go back to John's Prophecy and understand how he defines being baptized with the Holy Ghost:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)


11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


There is no mention in Acts of being baptized with fire in correlation to the salvation experiences we see there.

The baptisms differ, the former being that of salvation, in which we are gathered into His garner, the second being that of eternal judgment, for familiar terminology is used to speak of those baptized with fire.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

2. It is not the same as regeneration, as there were those who had faith in Christ because of John's preaching, and were alive in Christ because of that faith, and that faith is also a work of the Spirit.

While I agree the eternal indwelling can be viewed as distinct from our regeneration, what I would suggest is that the eternal indwelling is the reason for our regeneration.

We are new creatures because we are made alive, and brought into union with God. This is the remedy for the condition man is born into to, which is that condition of being born separated from God, not having life, and in need of being reconciled to God.

Again, I see the two key elements of salvation presented to us by Paul in this singular statement:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


We are saved when we are born again, and...reconciled to God.

3. It is the work of Christ, and of Him alone.

Agreed.

4. It is manifest by extraordinary faith and boldness in the face of opposition or "fire," and, if God deems necessary, but not always, miraculous signs.

We have to consider that in Acts we are seeing the establishment of the Church, and that it was needful for it to be understood that Jew, Gentile, and Samaritan were all receiving the Gift of God. That men spoke in languages held a more important role in that day, such as in Jerusalem when there were gathered so many differing language speaking Jews. They preached and men heard the Gospel in their own tongue, thus was the Gospel conveyed to men.

But the important issue to keep in mind is that in all of these events, men received the Spirit promised by God, and fulfilled in the establishing of the New Covenant.

We see this foretold by Christ here:


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


We see that the Spirit would be given to those that would believe on Christ, and this is specified as after Christ was glorified. the "rivers of living water" are internal, and...eternal. In view is eternal life bestowed to those who would believe on Christ, and this is correlated directly to them receiving the Spirit of God.

That is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.


Continued...