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Featured Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment vs Sola Scriptura

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jun 19, 2016.

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  1. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<Jesus had not come. Jesus had not given them rest.>>


    Those who died in peace, died in the peace and “rest Jesus gave them”. There never was another “Rest-of-God” just like “God shall not speak of another day (of Salvation or “Rest”) after these things” of the “Today” of his Voice that spoke to them ---to those who were <<under the law>>.


    Just like for us “in these last days” God’s Voice is heard through Jesus Christ, just so for them “in times past” God’s Voice was heard through Jesus Christ even though “God spake by the prophets”.


    There is no other Name than “JESUS”, who “gave them, the People of God, Rest.” Moses’ wasn’t another name. Just so “There is therefore”, no other day “for the People of God’s keeping”, than “a Sabbath Day’s-keeping”--"the day The Seventh Day GOD, THUS CONCERNING SPAKE".
     
  2. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<He is our Sabbath (rest).>>

    Absolutely so! Jesus always is our Rest; Jesus also is God’s Rest of his Sabbath Day, our, Sabbath Day. But He never is or is called ‘our Sabbath’. Jesus is no day, the Sabbath Day or not; and Jesus is not our act of observance of his Sabbath Day or of any ‘rest’, ours, whatsoever. Jesus is least of all, our rest or act of rest. Our rest is nothing; in fact it is dross and sinful. It is just hypocrisy and silliness to claim Jesus is our or ‘my’ Sabbath or 'our' or ‘my Sabbath-Rest'.
     
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    "Enter into my 'rest.'" (i.e. Jesus). IOW, He is my rest.
    "Come unto me and I will give you rest." Yes, he is my rest. He gives me perfect peace which passes all understanding.
    "If you abide in my I will abide in you...." He is my rest. Sabbath means rest.
    In the NT the emphasis is on faith in Christ, not faith in a day, or the observance of such.
     
  4. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    Jesus is not <<Lord of Saturday>>; the devil is. Saturday is no day in God’s vocabulary.

    Jesus is Lord, every day, <<of every day>>. Sure, like He is Master of every situation at every second of all our lives.


    But Jesus is “Lord of the Sabbath” like He is Lord of no other day. Because He is “the Son of Man who takes hold of the Sabbath Day to keep it and guard it from harm and sacrilege.” What would He do that for if the Sabbath weren’t “My Holy Day” and He wasn’t crowned with honour Himself by God who “caused Him to ride the heights of the earth for having honoured the Sabbath and for calling the Sabbath His delight”?


    Every day is NOT “holy unto the LORD”. It is a contradiction in terms. Because to be holy unto the LORD means to “BE SET APART FROM” all other days “UNTO THE LORD” …in whole! No other day be it a day of the week or a day on the months’ calendar has God set apart for or unto Himself. On the contrary, the Commandment says to man, “Six days YOU must do all YOUR work”. In other words, the first six days of the week are ‘profane’ days---not holy days! LOL.
     
  5. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    <<"Enter into my 'rest.'" (i.e. Jesus). IOW, He is my rest.>>

    Sabbath believers’ as well, like Jesus Christ is my Rest, as well. Or do you say no? You can say what you like, “The Lord knows who are his.”

    <<"Come unto me and I will give you rest." Yes, he is my rest. He gives me perfect peace which passes all understanding.>>

    For Sabbath believers as well, as for me too. Or are you, our judge? “MY peace I give to you; not like the world gives peace” … “therefore do not you let anybody (of the world) judge you in eating and drinking of Sabbaths’ Feast of Christ the Substance”.

    <<"If you abide in my I will abide in you...." He is my rest.>>

    Amen. Mine and ours too. Love the Lord Jesus, “He is The Nourishment ministered whilst the Body … of Christ’s Own … is growing with the growth of God”.

    <<Sabbath means rest.>>

    Sabbath does not mean <rest>; it means “Rest-Day”— ‘Shabbath’ in Hebrew. ‘shabath’ means ‘rest’ in Hebrew.


    <<In the NT the emphasis is on faith in Christ, not faith in a day, or the observance of such.>>

    Sure! As seen in this post, I trust.

    There’s only one problem with this statement though. It treats faith in Christ as if it means that the SCRIPTURES not so much as mention, and in effect exclude the only day of faith in Christ, the Sabbath Day. It implies there is no emphasis on faith in Christ with regard to the Sabbath or its observance. While it is ONLY, SCRIPTURE.
     
  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Saturday is just a word, the name of another day. We do not think of the etymology of the word when we use it. To us it means the first day of the week-end, the day after the work-week, a day when we can get some personal work done--other than office work, etc. It is a word, and God is omniscient. He is not ignorant of any word. All words are in His vocabulary.
    He is Lord of all and every day. Look in Genesis chapter one. He created each day, one by one and then he looked upon his creation and declared that ALL was very good. But you say that the creation of God is of the devil. Shame on you.
    IOW, He is sovereign, whether or not you are the one that is victorious.

    He is Lord over every day. Read Genesis one.
    He is Lord over Days, one, two, three, four, five, six, and Seven--whether or not it is called the Sabbath. It doesn't matter what it is called.
    But he doesn't. If he did the entire Islamic world would keep.
    I would keep it too; but I don't and have no intention of keeping it. Your statement is completely false.
    Every day is holy unto the Lord.

    Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

    (GW) One person decides that one day is holier than another. Another person decides that all days are the same. Every person must make his own decision.
    --The Lord didn't not declare any one day holier than another. It is up to the believer to make that personal decision.

    Every day "is holy unto the Lord." No day is profane. Believers ought to dedicate not only themselves but every minute, hour, and day to the Lord. What part of your life do you consider profane? What days to you set apart to the Lord as "profane"? Does that make sense.

    Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
    --The "Lord's Day" is Sunday according to most commentaries.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1. I do not limit my scope for week-day-1 any more than for the Bible seventh day Sabbath. I include both OT and NT for the statement - "here is not one NT or OT text saying "week day 1 is the Holy Day of the LORD" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Is 58:13. (AND we do not have ONE text in the NT or OT that says "week day 1 is the LORD's Day)" -- and we both know it.

    Your first point does not survive this detail.

    2. Your second point is nonsense. You argue that if week-day-1 is introduced as the new weekly day of worship in the NT - then the Bible 7th day Sabbath must be "introduced" in the NT and not the OT. That is utter nonsense. What is "logical" is to say that if week-day-1 is introduced as the new "Sabbath" or as the "Lord's Day" a weekly day of worship - in the NT - then the text should SAY it -- just as the Bible already says that for the Bible seventh day Sabbath.

    This point is incredibly obvious. The fact that the text for the salient point in your response is missing - explains why you side step this glaringly obvious detail.

    Thus... the point remains.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    2. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT that says that "they met EVERY week-day-1 for gospel teaching" for both Jews AND gentiles but we DO have that for Sabbath in Acts 18:4-6.

    Acts 18:4 they meet EVERY SABBATH in Gospel teaching - of BOTH Jews and gentiles in the synagogues.

    Wild speculation - not a fact stated in the text.
    .
    And you have yet to provide even one "they met every week-day-1 for Gospel preaching some place other than the synagogue"...

    were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

    the point remains.

    1. Nothing there about "week-day-1 is the Lord's Day"
    2. Nothing there about "meet or assemble every week-day-1"
    3. Nothing there about "worship every week day 1"

    Were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

    It is each individual laying by themselves alone - at home - at the first of each week - the gift amount to be reserved for that special offering. And they were to do this weekly until Paul arrived.

    Thus the one text that is "every week day 1" misses all the details you need for a week-day-1 day of worship and day of honor named "The LORD's Day" starting in the NT.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    4. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "from week day 1 to week day 1 shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" - but we DO have that in Is 66:23 for the Sabbath.

    1. "There REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" - REMAINS as it was in Psalms 95.
    2. Even your own retreat on this point merely claims that on this point the Sabbath is the SAME as weed-day-1 in the NT (but not in the Bible as a book) which does not amount for affirmation of week-day-1 even by your own argument!!
    3. My point is that there is no such affirmation for week-day-1 as we see for Sabbath in Isaiah 66:23 and your retreat merely confesses that the point is true!! How is that supposed to defend week-day-1 sola scriptura???/
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    5. There is not ONE text in the NT or OT saying "the Son of man is LORD of week day 1" but we DO have that in the NT for the Sabbath in Mark 2:28

    Christ specifically pointed to Sabbath in Mark 2:28 "The Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath" - there is no place in all of scripture where Christ or anyone else specifically points out week-day-1 with that sort of claim. Your own response is proof - as you seek for "the best you can get" in that regard - and it turns out to be a text that makes no mention at all of week-day-1.

    The claim made in point 5 remains unchallenged by any text that actually mentions week-day-1.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    6. There is not ONE text in the NT saying "there REMAINS therefore a week-day 1 rest for the people of God" but we DO have that for Sabbath in Heb 4.

    And in this case it is the fact stated in the text that the Sabbath REMAINS as it was in Psalms 95.

    The quote is pointing to an example for week-day-1 that we do NOT find in the text at all. Ignoring this detail is not helping your case.

    Heb 10:4-10 we have an example of an OT law ended.
    Heb 4 we have a quote of the Sabbath origination in Gen 2:1-3 as in Ex 20:11 Sabbath commandment and a claim that it remains as it was in Psalms 95.

    Sadly - for week-day-1 Hebrews 4 not only quotes the Sabbath origination in Gen 2:1-3 as in Ex 20:11 Sabbath commandment and a claim that it remains as it was in Psalms 95.--- but it demands the Sabbath rest for the people of God.

    What is worse - no such example of that same thing is given in OT or NT for week-day-1.

    Heb 4
    4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this passage, “They shall not enter My rest.” 6 Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before,

    “Today if you hear His voice,
    Do not harden your hearts.” (Ps 95)

    8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of another day after that. 9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.(NASB)

    Hebrews 4:9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.


    Hebrews 4:9English Standard Version (ESV)
    9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God,


    Hebrews 4:9New International Version (NIV)
    9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;


    Hebrews 4:9Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
    9 there doth remain, then, a Sabbatic rest to the people of God,

    Hebrews 4:9New English Translation (NET Bible)
    9 Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
     
    #131 BobRyan, Jul 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    here is great reference material ---

    EWTN video added -- go to the 19min:30sec point of the video for about 5 minutes of on-topic commentary.


     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    7. There is not ONE text in NT or OT saying "remember week-day-1 to keep it holy" but we DO have that in Ex 20:8 for the Sabbath.


    This is a "sola scriptura" not a "Sola NT" discussion. My Bible has 66 books.

    What Papist in the dark ages could not use such failed tactics as that "only quote from the NT" to show the Bible affirmation of the Bible Sabbath. The point is that "sola scriptura" we have this Bible affirmation for the Bible Sabbath and nothing like it OT or NT for week-day-1.

    The point remains.. unchallenged by an actual text.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    8. There is NOT ONE text in NT or OT saying it is ok by God if we bend/edit/break/ignore one of the TEN Commandments - but we DO have condemnation for doing such a thing in the NT -- by the Words of Christ Himself! Mark 7:6-13

    "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Isaiah 66:23
    Isaiah 56:1-8 gentiles specifically blessed for keeping Sabbath.
    "Every Sabbath" and "Sabbath after Sabbath" gentiles get gospel preaching in the synagogues -- not just Jews.
    Acts 18:4
    Acts 17:4

    GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

    Mark 7

    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
    10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
    11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
    12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
    13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


    That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture.
     
  15. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning

    Some time after 4pm Pacific this thread will be closed.
     
  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yet you still have no evidence of a command for NT believers to keep the Sabbath. Where is it?
    Use the NT. There is none.
     
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There is no speculation. The synagogue had a special order to it. Paul did not go to the synagogue to disrupt it. He followed the proscribed order of service, and if asked to preach or teach, as he often was, he would take the opportunity. He was not belligerent as you are implying.

    Here is what often happened:
    Acts 13:15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.
    1. The reading of the law and prophets took place (not by Paul).
    2. No doubt they had other parts to their service. You can look it up.
    3. Recognizing Paul was a rabbi they invite him to speak.

    Acts 13:16 Then Paul stood up, and beckoning with his hand said, Men of Israel, and ye that fear God, give audience.
    4. Paul gladly takes the opportunity and preaches the gospel.

    5. This time they want to hear more on the next Sabbath. In different synagogues there were different results as there always is with the preaching of the Word:
    Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
    --A little study might do you some good here.

    You are supposed to understand simple words. Try again:
    1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
    --They gathered together on the first day of the week as their custom was. That is why Paul would meet them.
    Until Paul arrived on the first day of the week when the met. Otherwise the very mention of the first day of the week would be needless. Who cares which day of the week one chooses to set aside money in the privacy of one's own home.

    Is not Christ Lord of All
    Maybe not in your life?
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Psalm 95, OT of course, is written for Israel--not for NT believers.
    You still can't show one verse in the NT that is a command for NT believers to keep the Sabbath!
    Why is that Bob?
    Answer? Because there isn't any. The Sabbath was given to the nation of Israel. Exodus 31. Read it.
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
    --Also indicates that He is Lord of many things; Lord of All things; Lord of every day--Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc. In this day, the Sabbath (Saturday) is just one of seven days. It is nothing special.

    You major on the minors and try to make something of nothing. Pity.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We also have Isa.66:22 which you ignore. Thus Isa.66:23 is taken out of context. No need to refer to it.

    Psalm 95 was written to Israel and for Israel, not to NT believers.
    In Heb. 4, the Sabbath points to rest, specifically faith in Christ as our rest, and not a day.
    Those who put their faith in a day were unbelievers. Do you fall in that category?
    Those who put their faith in the law were unbelievers. The chapter is about faith.
    Is your faith in keeping of the law, like the Sabbath or faith in Christ? You can't have both.
    One cannot serve two masters.
     
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