People leaving Church

[Van]

Here is a link to an article on Drudge.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...onger-believe-in-god-miracles/article/2600066

They are not leaving because they were discipled.
They are not leaving because observing Christ's commands is too much of a chore.

But they do not believe in miracles - claims of things happening supernaturally today.

It appears the drip, drip drip of the corrosive of the Godless left is taking its toll.

Recently I saw a movie about Ali and how he turned away from Christianity, the "wait until you die, then you get pie in the sky" white man's religion.

 

[StefanM]

It's purifying the church by getting rid of the dross. Those that left need to be evangelized.

 

[Van]

Is it possible the churches they exited are the dross? John said they went out from us because they were not of us. Our question might be why were they not "of us?" What kind of churches - Reformed, Catholic, or SBC?

 

[StefanM]

Is it possible the churches they exited are the dross? John said they went out from us because they were not of us. Our question might be why were they not "of us?" What kind of churches - Reformed, Catholic, or SBC?

If you leave any church and don't believe in Christian beliefs, it doesn't matter where you left. Maybe both are dross.

 

[Van]

If some outreach efforts actually hinder the ministry of Christ, we should evaluate them. Some might say those leaving were never given faith via irresistible grace. Thus we did nothing untoward. Others who think the fields are white for the harvest, might think we need more and better trained labors. Others might say, its end times and so we should expect the church to die.

 

[StefanM]

If some outreach efforts actually hinder the ministry of Christ, we should evaluate them. Some might say those leaving were never given faith via irresistible grace. Thus we did nothing untoward. Others who think the fields are white for the harvest, might think we need more and better trained labors. Others might say, its end times and so we should expect the church to die.

I agree with you RE: outreach. We can't assume we are behaving rightly at any time, so even if a person who left is never going to seek Christ, we can't use that as an excuse. We should consider if we are also being disobedient.

You'll have no qualms from me RE: evangelism.

The end times thing is just an excuse. If people use it, then they need to reevaluate their belief system. If anything, the end should increase urgency.

 

[Van]

Spot on Stefan M.

 

[Revmitchell]

People who are truly saved will always seek God. We have a new nature and all of our want to's have changed.

 

[Iconoclast]

it is obvious that people were looking for truth...they were looking to go in...
The bible says that no one seeks God....but somehow these people thought they were...they were nice sinners...not really depraved...they just needed a little information...We only need one verse here....IT COVERS EVERYTHING


MT 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

But false teachers were in the church , telling them the myth that God was waiting for them to show that they had faith, then God could credit their faith,,,,as if God would credit sinners for their worthless human trust.....they were then told that God has not elected anyone , not any individual for salvation....so they gave up all hope and left.
Yes indeed...these folks knew that these open theism ideas would not overcome the world , the flesh , and the devil....so they left...

 

[SovereignGrace]

it is obvious that people were looking for truth...they were looking to go in...
The bible says that no one seeks God....but somehow these people thought they were...they were nice sinners...not really depraved...they just needed a little information...We only need one verse here....IT COVERS EVERYTHING


MT 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

But false teachers were in the church , telling them the myth that God was waiting for them to show that they had faith, then God could credit their faith,,,,as if God would credit sinners for their worthless human trust.....they were then told that God has not elected anyone , not any individual for salvation....so they gave up all hope and left.
Yes indeed...these folks knew that these open theism ideas would not overcome the world , the flesh , and the devil....so they left...

I do not mean this in a snidely manner, but I will proceed with caution and not try to offend anyone on here..

I believe FGT has done way too much harm in our churches. How do you know if they really left the church? The church is the body of Christ en masse, so in the FGT schema, they have not left the church. They are saved, they just do not act like it. They live a worldly life, living carnally, showing no piety whatsoever. But they prayed the prayer, and they sincerely meant it, and no amount of evil fruit, no amount of zero Spiritual growth can overcome their 'walk' with God.

 

[SovereignGrace]

it is obvious that people were looking for truth...they were looking to go in...
The bible says that no one seeks God....but somehow these people thought they were...they were nice sinners...not really depraved...they just needed a little information...We only need one verse here....IT COVERS EVERYTHING


MT 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

But false teachers were in the church , telling them the myth that God was waiting for them to show that they had faith, then God could credit their faith,,,,as if God would credit sinners for their worthless human trust.....they were then told that God has not elected anyone , not any individual for salvation....so they gave up all hope and left.
Yes indeed...these folks knew that these open theism ideas would not overcome the world , the flesh , and the devil....so they left...

God also holds us to a higher standard as His word proclaims "for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”[1 Peter 1:16] Now, none of us, on our own, can be holy. The only reason why we can even scratch the surface of holiness is because Christ lived a holy life in our stead. And, if He has saved us, He has changed us, and changed our lives.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I do not mean this in a snidely manner, but I will proceed with caution and not try to offend anyone on here..

I believe FGT has done way too much harm in our churches. How do you know if they really left the church? The church is the body of Christ en masse, so in the FGT schema, they have not left the church. They are saved, they just do not act like it. They live a worldly life, living carnally, showing no piety whatsoever. But they prayed the prayer, and they sincerely meant it, and no amount of evil fruit, no amount of zero Spiritual growth can overcome their 'walk' with God.

FGT is the epitome of 'wait until you die, then you get pie in the sky' teachings. It is exactly that.

 

[JamesL]

I believe FGT has done way too much harm in our churches.....

They live a worldly life, living carnally.....

But they prayed the prayer, and they sincerely meant it.....

If it's ok, I'll take issue with the last one being used in reference to Free Grace Theology.

I'm a Free Grace proponent, and I can assure you that praying a prayer to be saved is a deplorable, despicable "notch on the bedpost" type of evangelism which is ineffective at best, and a complete heresy imho.

Those who advocate this "voodoo of you do" works prayer are no different from those who advocate baptismal regeneration.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Here is a link to an article on Drudge.
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/p...onger-believe-in-god-miracles/article/2600066

They are not leaving because they were discipled.

Your comments don't make much sense above. 'They are not leaving because they were discipled'. Do you mean, that if they had been 'discipled' they would have remained? I agree with you here, but we probably have two differing beliefs on what it means to 'be discipled'. Disciples are made, they are the result of true conversion, cf Matthew 28:18ff. One cannot disciple a goat into a sheep.

They are not leaving because observing Christ's commands is too much of a chore.

No one can keep His commandments unless they love Christ, and this is evidence of true conversion. The lost hate God.

But they do not believe in miracles - claims of things happening supernaturally today.

It appears the drip, drip drip of the corrosive of the Godless left is taking its toll.

Recently I saw a movie about Ali and how he turned away from Christianity, the "wait until you die, then you get pie in the sky" white man's religion.

I won't blame the left for this, it is the fall that is to be blamed, not some politically correct party. Ali was right, by the way, Finneyism and his decisional regeneration has much to be blamed for the deluge of false teaching, assuring carnal men and women of heaven 'when they die' because they made a decision and were sincere.

 

[Internet Theologian]

If it's ok, I'll take issue with the last one being used in reference to Free Grace Theology.

I'm a Free Grace proponent, and I can assure you that praying a prayer to be saved is a deplorable, despicable "notch on the bedpost" type of evangelism which is ineffective at best, and a complete heresy imho.

Those who advocate this "voodoo of you do" works prayer are no different from those who advocate baptismal regeneration.

You may be a Free Grace proponent, but yours would be a differing view than that of true FGT, therefore you're not truly of the FGT camp.

 

[Deacon]

FGT is the epitome of 'wait until you die, then you get pie in the sky' teachings. It is exactly that.

I assure you that Free Grace Theology is not 'wait until you die, then you get pie in the sky' .
It's distictiive is a clear separation between salvation and sanctification.
Grace is free; it doesn't cost continued church membership.

That being said, there are benefits to being an active member in the body of Christ.

Being a Christian costs so much; transformation means loving rather than hating.
Showing grace rather than emnity.

Rob

 

[Revmitchell]

I assure you that Free Grace Theology is not 'wait until you die, then you get pie in the sky' .
It's distictiive is a clear separation between salvation and sanctification.
Grace is free; it doesn't cost continued church membership.



Rob

The problem is that it creates and unnecessary divide between the two. We cannot be Christians and live like we are not. It just is not possible.

 

[Van]

it is obvious that people were looking for truth...they were looking to go in...
The bible says that no one seeks God....but somehow these people thought they were...they were nice sinners...not really depraved...they just needed a little information...We only need one verse here....IT COVERS EVERYTHING


MT 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

But false teachers were in the church , telling them the myth that God was waiting for them to show that they had faith, then God could credit their faith,,,,as if God would credit sinners for their worthless human trust.....they were then told that God has not elected anyone , not any individual for salvation....so they gave up all hope and left.
Yes indeed...these folks knew that these open theism ideas would not overcome the world , the flesh , and the devil....so they left...

This post is so full of fiction it reeks.

Does the Bible say no one seeks God at any time? Nope - falsehood number 1.
Did anyone say those that left were "nice sinners?" Nope - falsehood number 2.
Did anyone say they were not really depraved? Nope - falsehood number 3.
Did anyone say they just needed a little information? Nope - falsehood number 4.
Did anyone say they only needed one verse? Nope - falsehood number 5.
Did anyone say God was waiting for them to show they had faith? Nope - falsehood number 6.

Then we get the myth that God does not credit the worthless faith of sinners as righteousness. Falsehood number 7.

Did anyone say God has not elected anyone? Nope - falsehood number 8
Did any of them say they left because of open theism? Nope - falsehood number 9.

 

[JamesL]

The problem is that it creates and unnecessary divide between the two. We cannot be Christians and live like we are not. It just is not possible.

It is absolutely possible.

Please don't misunderstand that to mean that it's acceptable, or encouraged, or taken lightly.

But Jesus said some would receive the word, which is a euphemism for believing the gospel, and would be so ensnated by the world that they become unfruitful.

 

[Van]

Your comments don't make much sense above. 'They are not leaving because they were discipled'. Do you mean, that if they had been 'discipled' they would have remained? I agree with you here, but we probably have two differing beliefs on what it means to 'be discipled'. Disciples are made, they are the result of true conversion, cf Matthew 28:18ff. One cannot disciple a goat into a sheep.

Yes we have two very different views of scripture. I believe everyone starts out a goat, by nature a child of wrath, and then when born anew, becomes a sheep. Before conversion (done by God alone supernaturally) the person's faith was credited as righteousness. The issue is I believe witnessing and prayer and study of God word can lead a person to Christ. Part of that nurturing, that tilling the ground, that planting, that watering includes teaching Christ's commands, such as be perfect as I am perfect. A commitment to follow Christ without a clue as to His path of righteousness is meaningless.

No one can keep His commandments unless they love Christ, and this is evidence of true conversion. The lost hate God.

If we love Christ we will keep His commandments. Not if we are clueless as to what they are! Paul tells us of misplaced ministry that does not earn rewards.

I won't blame the left for this, it is the fall that is to be blamed, not some politically correct party.

Do not blame the fall for our failure to make disciples of those open to the gospel. Read the reasons given.