Union With Christ

[Iconoclast]

The great blessing of our union with Christ from Arminiamnism/Calvinism

THE BELIEVER’S UNION WITH CHRIST
The final perseverance of the saints rests on the objective basis of the immutability or infallibility of the eternal, redemptive purpose as it is expressed in the believer’s union with Christ. The Scriptures clearly teach that every true Christian has been brought into spiritual union with Christ, and that this vital relationship is by sovereign grace alone, was determined in eternity, is necessarily evidenced in the life, and will infallibly be consummated in glory. The believer’s union with Christ is thus the biblical reality that forms “the central truth of all theology and all religion”550:
• This truth has been largely neglected because of a sacramentarian approach to Christianity. The sacramentarian idea holds union with Christ to be by the “sacraments” of “baptism” (allegedly placing one in Christ) and “communion” (literally or mystically putting Christ into the communicant).
• This truth is also neglected due to the influence of those who hold that the believer’s union with Christ is merely experiential, mystical or subjective, necessarily denying the eternal, redemptive purpose of God; therefore believing that such a union can be dissolved (Arminianism, Pelagianism551).
• This truth finds its foundation in the eternal, redemptive purpose of God. This union was established in eternal election (Eph. 1:3–11), is analogically understood by the union or identification of all humanity in Adam (Rom. 5:12ff; 1 Cor. 15:22), found its reality in the incarnation and redemptive work of Christ (Rom. 5:10, 18–21; 6:1–10; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–3), finds expression in biblical Christian experience (Rom. 6:1–14; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–5ff), and will be fully realized in future glory (Eph. 2:6–7).
• This truth forms the eternal and objective basis for the believer’s experience, confidence and hope. Herein is the only scriptural basis for a true, biblical assurance of salvation. To deny this revealed, glorious truth is to base one’s salvation on an experience, on personal faithfulness, or on adherence to a subjective, legalistic system. In the believer’s union with Christ is revealed the glory of free and sovereign grace in its fullness.
550 J. W. Alexander of Princeton Seminary, as quoted in A. H. Strong, Systematic Theology, p. 795. 551 Arminians or Pelagians are those who believe in free will or plenary human ability, denying the moral and noetic effects of the Fall. It is argued that if man possesses a free will to come to Christ savingly, he also must possess a free will to depart from Christ and so lose his salvation—a complete repudiation of the biblical truth of the believer’s union with Christ. 216
• The believer’s union with Christ is necessarily and clearly evidenced in the life and experience. It forms the basis of all valid Christian experience. It is an integral part of personal sanctification (Rom. 6:1–23; Gal. 2:20; Col. 3:1–5ff).
• This doctrine is plainly taught in Scripture, and consists of two approaches: doctrinal statements and analogical illustrations.
The doctrinal statements include those passages which:
(1) describe the believer’s position as “in [evn] Christ” or “into [eivj] Christ”: Rom. 6:3; Gal. 3:27; Rom. 6:11; 8:1; 1 Cor. 1:2, 30; 15:22; Eph. 1:1, 3, 4, 6, 7, 11; 2:6–7, 10; 1 Pet. 5:14.
(2) declare that believers are identified “with [su.n] Christ”: Rom. 6:4, 6, 8; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 2:5; Col. 3:1–3; 2 Tim. 2:11–12.
(3) describe the believer’s relationship or standing before God “by” or “through” [di.a] Christ: Rom. 5:21; 6:8; Gal. 6:14.
(4) reveal that Christ is “in” [evn] the believer: Jn. 14:20, 23; Rom. 8:9–10; Gal. 2:20; Eph. 3:17; Col. 1:27.
There are at least five scriptural analogies that are used to illustrate this vital union of the believer with Christ:
(1) The Vine and the branches (Jn. 15:1–7). The branch must be in vital living union with the vine both to be alive and to produce fruit.
(2) The husband and the wife, or the marriage relationship (Rom. 7:1–4; Eph. 5:23–33). The two become “one flesh” before God, i.e., a single entity.
(3) The body and its members or parts (1 Cor. 6:15, 19; 12:13; Eph. 1:22–23; 4:11–16). Although each member possesses certain distinctions, each is an organic or vital member of a larger whole.
(4) The building and its foundation (Eph. 2:20–22; Col. 2:6–7; 1 Pet. 2:4–5).
(5) The identification of all men with Adam (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22, 45–47).
The major passages revealing and teaching the believer’s union with Christ in the eternal, redemptive purpose include the following:
At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jn. 14:20
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by [in, in union with]552 his life. (Rom. 5:10)
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead [died]553 to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his
552 swqhso,meqa evn th/| zwh/| auvtou/. 553 oi[tinej avpeqa,nomen th/| a`marti,a|. “Such ones as we are,” a qualitative pers. pron. “Died”. The aor. tense in v. 1–10 all refer to “having died” as a past fact that is to be reckoned as such in the present experience. 217

death? Therefore we are [were] buried with him by baptism into death554: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is [was] crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead [died] is freed from sin. Now if we be dead [died] with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,555 but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6: 1–11)
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus… (Rom. 8:1)
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. and if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. but if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:9–11)
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption. (1 Cor. 1:30)
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22)
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead [all died]556: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.557 (2 Cor. 5:14–17)
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Cor. 13:5)
554

The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration. The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah. Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.). Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it. 555 The term changes at this point to “corpse,” i.e., the believer is to reckon himself to be as it were a corpse (logi,zesqe e`autou.j Îei=naiÐ nekrou.j me.n th/| a`marti,a|) with respect to sin—wholly unresponsive to sin’s solicitations. 556 o[ti eivj u`pe.r pa,ntwn avpe,qanen( a;ra oi` pa,ntej avpe,qanon. “That if one died on behalf of [the] all, then [the] all died,” revealing the covenant and effectual nature of Christ’s death and the believer’s vital union in this transaction. 557 The Lord Jesus Christ is now exalted at the Father’s right hand as the Lord of glory in an entirely new and different relationship as the God–man (a death and resurrection have taken place); just so, there is a distinct, radical change for every believer—the old life with its significance has passed away, and all has become new by virtue of his union with Christ. 218

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2.
I am crucified [have been co–crucified] with Christ558: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal. 2:20)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.559 (Gal. 3:27)
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is [has been and continues to be]560 crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (Gal. 6:14)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:3–6)
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. (Eph. 1:10–12)
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.561 (Eph. 2:4–6)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.562 (Eph. 2:8–10)
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: to whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col. 1:26–27)
For in him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. and ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised
558 Cristw/| sunestau,rwmai. “With Christ I have been co–crucified.”\Aor. ptc. 559 See footnote 191. If taken literally, this would teach sacramentarianism (a conferring of grace through physical means), i.e., baptismal regeneration. 560 …Ihsou/ Cristou/( diV ouv evmoi. ko,smoj evstau,rwtai kavgw. ko,smw|Å “Crucified” (evstau,rwtai) perf. pass. 561 Positionally, the believer is already in heaven, i.e., as good as there already—because he is “in Christ”. This vital union is the basis of the believer’s assurance in the infallibility of the redemptive purpose. 562 The believer’s union with Christ necessarily evidences itself in Christian experience. Cf. Rom. 6:1–23, despite some modern Dispensational teachers who hold that the believer’s position “in Christ” is merely objective and has no relation to the daily life. 219

him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses. (Col. 2:9–13)
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead [ye died], and your life is hid with Christ in God. (Col. 3:1–3)
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead [died]563 with him, we shall also live with him: if we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Of these things put them in remembrance… (2 Tim. 2:11–12)
This spiritual union of the believer with Christ—the reality of the infallible, eternal redemptive purpose may be described and explained in the following terms:
• It is an organic union. Believers become members of Christ as members of an organism, albeit this organism is spiritual. This spiritual union is to find expression in the local assembly (1 Cor. 12:27; Eph. 4:11–16; Phil. 1:27).
• It is a vital union. The life of Christ becomes the dominating and energizing principle within the believer (Gal. 2:20; Rom. 6:11–14; 8:5–14; 2 Cor. 13:5).
• It is a spiritual union. Not only is this union spiritual in nature, it is mediated and sustained by the ministry of the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 3:16–19).
• It is a personal union. Every believer is personally or individually united to Christ directly as to his spiritual life (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 2:20).
• It is a legal or federal union. As the believer was once identified or in union with Adam, so he is now in union with Christ (Rom. 5:12–21). All the legal or covenant obligations of the believer rest on or are met in Christ, and all the legal or covenant merits accrue to the believer.
• It is a reciprocal union. This takes into account both the objective and subjective aspects. The initial action is on the part of Christ, to whom the believer in faith reacts, interacts, or reciprocates. This is not only union, but necessarily communion with the triune Godhead through Christ (Jn. 14:6, 9, 16–17, 20; Rom. 8:9–16; Eph. 3:16–19).
• It is a transforming union. Believers are changed into the image of Christ according to his human nature. This began at regeneration, when the image of God was restored in principle in righteousness, holiness of the truth and knowledge (Eph. 4:22–24564; Col. 3:9–10) and continues throughout the Christian experience as believers are “conformed to the image of his Son” in maturity, sufferings, etc. (Rom. 6:6, 14; 8:9–10; 14–17, 29; Eph. 2:10).
563 “…if we died with him…” (sunapeqa,nomen)., i.e., were identified or brought into union in his death. 564 Eph. 4:22–24 should read as does Col. 3:10—as a present condition based on a past fact, i.e., “you have [already] put on…you have [already] put off…” not as a command. Cf. the use of the aor. inf. of result, which views the action as past. 220
• It is an inscrutable union. This is what old Divines termed the “mystical union” of Christ and his own, i.e., this union is mysterious in the sense of being incomprehensible and incapable of intelligent comprehension in our finite state.
• It is an indissoluble union. This relation, identification or union between Christ and the believer can never be dissolved. Note that, in biblical teaching, justification by faith has an immediate relation to assurance of faith (e.g., Rom. 5:1–3). This relationship is both necessary and logical because of the reality of the believer’s indissoluble union with Christ.
Thus, the believer’s union with Christ stands at the very center of all redemptive truth and forms the objective scriptural basis for the final perseverance of the true people of God.

 

[Iconoclast]

pt3
Union with Christ and Romans Chapter Six
The Relation between Romans 5:10–21 And 6:1–23
Romans chapter six, more than any other passage, deals with practical implications and necessary expression of the believer’s union with Christ in the life and experience. The basis of the teaching in this chapter on the believer’s union with Christ is laid in 5:10, 12–21:
• Believers are saved by [in union with] the resurrection–life of our Lord (evn th/| zwh/| auvtou/).
• As every believer was once identified with or considered in union with Adam, so now every true believer is considered as identified with or in union with Christ.
• As the sin of Adam was imputed to the human race, and everyone inherited his sin–nature, so everyone in union with Christ has both an imputed righteousness [justification] and an imparted righteousness [sanctification].
• As sin reigned unto death in Adam, so grace reigns through righteousness unto eternal life through the Lord Jesus Christ. Thus, a converted life is the expression of the reality of the believer’s union with Christ.
The Analysis of Romans 6: A Warning against Antinomianism
The relation of the believer to sin is explored in 6:1–8:13. The believer cannot live in sin because of the necessary reality and practical implications of his union with Christ. Thus follows an inclusive argument against antinomianism (6:1–23). Then, the balance is given in a further argument against legalism (7:1–8:4),565 further followed by an exhortation to practical godliness in the life (8:5–13). Romans chapter six is thus a warning against antinomianism,566 and is itself two–fold:
565 It is absolutely essential that the reader notes that the extended section on the believer’s relation to the law does not end at 7:25, but at 8:4, and does not end on a note of defeat, but rather on a note of victory through the effectual ministry of the Holy Spirit! 566 Antinomianism, from avnti?, “against,” and no,moj “law.” Antinomianism is a historico– theological term first used by Martin Luther to describe those who, in their theology and practical religious experience, did not consider the Moral Law to be the rule of the believer’s life. It may also be used in a general sense to describe those who hold holiness or godliness of life to be optional for the professed believer. 221
1. A Doctrinal Warning concerning Antinomianism (6:1–14)
The Question (v. 1)
The Declaration (v. 2)
The Explanation (v. 3–10)
The Application (v. 11)
The Exhortation (v. 12–13)
The Conclusion (v. 14)
2. A Practical Warning concerning Antinomianism (6:15–23)
The Question (v. 15)
The Generalization (v. 16)
The Application (v. 17–18)
The Exhortation (v. 19)
The Explanation (v. 20–23)
A Summary of the Issues: The Implications of the Believer’s Union with Christ
• In the first statement (6:1–14), the practical implications and inevitable consequences of the believer’s union with Christ are set forth. Union with Christ means nothing less than identification in both his death and resurrection–life. This necessarily means that the dominating power of sin in the believer’s life has been broken so that he is no longer under the reigning power of sin or under a mere external principle of law, but rather under an inward principle of grace. Thus, identification [union] in the resurrection–life of the Lord Jesus Christ necessarily means a converted life.
• In the second statement (6:15–23), union with Christ in his death and resurrection–life necessarily means—not living in sin—but a change of masters. Not even one act of sin can be taken lightly! As believers once fervently and constantly served sin in their unregenerate state, they are now to serve righteousness with the very same determination. This is absolutely essential, as the wages of sin is death—eternal death!

 

[Van]

Whoa there icon, three posts of copy and paste mythology.

When is our union with Christ established? When God transfers us spiritually into Christ. The union describes that we are "in Christ" located within His propitiatory shelter, and He is in us - we have been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Not located in Christ = not saved, not justified, not forgiven, not alive, not born anew, not made righteous
Located in Christ = saved, justified, forgiven, alive, born anew, made righteous.

 

[JamesL]

Why is this not posted in the "woefully ignorant versus woefully arrogant" forum, that works-centered arena of vain philosophy called Calvinist vs Arminian...?

 

[Iconoclast]

"Van,

Whoa there icon, three posts of copy and paste mythology.

Do not concern yourself with it yeoman Van....You might hurt yourself trying to understand this.....Your post is reminds me of the antithesis.....

here you call the biblical truth that all believers rejoice in...MYTHOLOGY...it made me think of these portions of scripture for some reason;
ex14
19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the nigh
jn1
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

We know the natural man cannot welcome the things of God....They are Spiritually discerned..

When is our union with Christ established?

In the Covenant of Redemption which is God's love before time;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Thanks for that thoughtful question

 

[Iconoclast]

Why is this not posted in the "woefully ignorant versus woefully arrogant" forum, that works-centered arena of vain philosophy called Calvinist vs Arminian...?

This great truth is a basic and central truth that all Christians rejoice in. It does not need to be anywhere but right here to be enjoyed by all Christians, and discussed among those who want to learn and grow.
Detractors can go join RM in his whining on the other thread.

 

[JamesL]

This great truth is a basic and central truth that all Christians rejoice in. It does not need to be anywhere but right here to be enjoyed by all Christians, and discussed among those who want to learn and grow.
Detractors can go join RM in his whining on the other thread.

Do you believe God uses physical death as a form of chastising His children?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you believe God uses physical death as a form of chastising His children?

yes...that is certain-

1cor11;
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to those who do not support doctrine with relevant scripture.

Claims of biblical truth - we were united with Christ before creation - are repeated. But that assertion is mythology. When God transfers us into Christ is when we are united with Christ.

Does 2 Timothy 1:9 says we were united with Christ before creation? Nope. Does the verse say when God saved us and called us with our Holy calling? Nope. It says we were not saved because of our works, but according to His purpose and grace. When was Christ chosen to be our Redeemer? Before the foundation of the world. Thus, anyone redeemed (as indicated by being "in Christ Jesus" has been redeemed according to God's purpose and grace established when? "From all eternity."

In summary, did God establish His Redeemer because we earned it? Nope. Therefore what was granted to everyone redeemed, before creation? Grace according to God's purpose. The grace of God's redemptive plan is from all eternity, and therefore when we are transferred into Christ, the grace of our redemption was granted us from all eternity.

 

[JamesL]

Do you believe God uses physical death as a form of chastising His children?

yes...that is certain-

So the, tell me this....

Does God kill His child after His child has been restored to grace,

Or does He kill His child while in a state of not persevering?

 

[Iconoclast]

So the, tell me this....

Does God kill His child after His child has been restored to grace,

Or does He kill His child while in a state of not persevering?

When a believer sins severely enough that it will effect others would seem the most likely case for this kind of action on God's part. That is totally up to God.

When a believer is ....SAVED... from their sins, they are alsosaved from the consequence of all their individual sins, past present , and future...all have been paid for, that is why their is no more condemnation.
rom8
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

If you take some time and go over the first three posts slowly, you will understand the blessing of this truth.

It is not like russian roulette...i am in grace, i am out of grace, i am back in grace,etc
jn 5:24

 

[JamesL]

When a believer sins severely enough that it will effect others would seem the most likely case for this kind of action on God's part. That is totally up to God.

When a believer is ....SAVED... from their sins, they are alsosaved from the consequence of all their individual sins, past present , and future...all have been paid for, that is why their is no more condemnation.
rom8
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

If you take some time and go over the first three posts slowly, you will understand the blessing of this truth.

It is not like russian roulette...i am in grace, i am out of grace, i am back in grace,etc
jn 5:24

1) you didn't answer my question. Does God kill His child when said child is still sinning, or after said child has returned, repented, confessed, or whatever....(feel free to use whatever word/phrase best portrays your view)

2) That ambiguous "it's up to God" is a copout. You posit this position as though scripture explicitrly teaches it, posting that "this truth has been largely neglected..."
If it's such a magnificent truth, you ought to be able to answer my question.

3) you diverted to a philosophical explanation of a different issue.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Van,

Pay no attention to those who do not support doctrine with relevant scripture.

If I did that I would never respond to any of your posts...

Claims of biblical truth - we were united with Christ before creation - are repeated.

Yes and enjoyed by millions

 

[Iconoclast]

"JamesL,

) you didn't answer my question. Does God kill His child when said child is still sinning, or after said child has returned, repented, confessed, or whatever....(feel free to use whatever word/phrase best portrays your view)

I did not understand that you were looking for a timeline....I will answer more in a few minutes , have to get to the post office....

2) That ambiguous "it's up to God" is a copout.

James....God does what He will when he wants to...it is not a copout at all....I do not claim and special revelation to know His timetable;
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

The certainty is that He will do all His good pleasure.

You posit this position as though scripture explicitrly teaches it,

It clearly does and so much so that not one person on here can or will refute any part of it.

posting that "this truth has been largely neglected..."

The lazy professing church does not study and grow as it should, that is why we are under judgment.

If it's such a magnificent truth, you ought to be able to answer my question.

I gave a short answer...longer answers are available, when I return from the post office.

3) you diverted to a philosophical explanation of a different issue.

I do not do much in the way of philosophy....

 

[The Biblicist]

Iconoclast, there are several problems with your posts. First they cover far too much territory. Second, you confuse literal with metaphorical and symbolic unions with Christ. Finally, it really does not deal with the actual characteristics of spiritual union.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

Iconoclast, there are several problems with your posts. First they cover far too much territory

.

Concerning the size of the posts;
They are designed to introduce a topic. The reader can quote portions that are of interest to them.
I do not assume that the reader has become familiar with the material, so i offer a buffet on the topic.

Second, you confuse literal with metaphorical and symbolic unions with Christ.

B....we have many areas of agreement, but some sharp areas where we do not agree. One of us confuses these things. I think the case can be made that you do....so that is why we are going to see it differently, for example;
In post 1 we read this-

The reference to “baptism” is not literal, but must be taken figuratively. The Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration. The term “Baptism” was often used figuratively for identification with someone or thing (e.g., John the Baptist came to prepare or identify a people for the Messiah. Our Lord had to experience a “baptism” of suffering in Matt. 20:22–23; Mk. 10:38–39; Lk. 12:50, etc.). Here, of the believer’s union with Christ. Water baptism is symbolic of this union as an act of identification with Christ, but does not and cannot effect it.

You see water in rom 6..... I do not.

Finally, it really does not deal with the actual characteristics of spiritual union.

actually....it does.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist,

.

Concerning the size of the posts;
They are designed to introduce a topic. The reader can quote portions that are of interest to them.
I do not assume that the reader has become familiar with the material, so i offer a buffet on the topic.

Ok

B....we have many areas of agreement, but some sharp areas where we do not agree. One of us confuses these things. I think the case can be made that you do....so that is why we are going to see it differently, for example;
In post 1 we read this-

You see water in rom 6..... I do not.

How does the term "likeness" relate "baptized" to spiritual union with Christ in Romans 6:3-5 if the baptism under consideration is interpreted to be spiritual union?

Moreover, the local congregation is presented in scripture as metaphorical union with Christ but that is completely ignored. 1 Cor. 6:15-19 explicitly demands the physical body of the metaphorical "member" of the congregational body of Christ at Corinth. This ought to be obvious as even your use the term "member" with regard to the local church body. If someone asked you where your church membership resides you would give the name of your church. This is so obvious, and so Biblical based that only theological bias would prevent anyone from denying it.

 

[The Biblicist]

actually....it does.

Actually it does not! Your article talks about closely related subjects, but never addresses its actual character.

Your article fails to define what spiritual union actually is. It can only be properly defined by contrast to spiritual separation from God. It can only be positively defined in connection to God as the source of life, light, Holiness and love. With regard to man it can only be defined in relationship to man's spirit in contrast to his body and soul. Spiritual union is impossible apart from indwelling because the human spirit abides within the physical body and so there can be no spiritual union unless the Holy Spirit is in union with man's spirit inside his body.

 

[Van]

Claims of biblical truth - we were united with Christ before creation - are repeated. But that assertion is mythology. When God transfers us into Christ is when we are united with Christ.

When is our union with Christ established? When God transfers us spiritually into Christ. The union describes that we are "in Christ" located within His propitiatory shelter, and He is in us - we have been sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.

Not located in Christ = not saved, not justified, not forgiven, not alive, not born anew, not made righteous
Located in Christ = saved, justified, forgiven, alive, born anew, made righteous.