Featured The Basis of Christian Unity

Did the Baptist Churches of the 1689 Confession fellowship with Bunyan's mixed multitude congregation?

 

So, God slew a person who was not only sincere in his efforts and worship, but ignorant! And what was the reason given. They did not worship him according to "due order." And now you argue that now since they studied the scriptures and are still ignorant, that God would accept their DISORDER any more than David's disorder???? Any reader foolish enough to embrace that is welcome to it.

No, your doctrine is the commandments and confessions of men not the Scriptures. Your principle of sincerity has been thoroughly exposed as error and your only basis for what you practice and believe is your own opinions. Even your own church, and paedbaptist churches are not consistent with your belief as the standard for membership in both still excludes both from the closest Christian fellowship among "members" of your so-called body of Christ.

Oh yes, how comforting it is to know that now some Paedbaptists in England are now immersing INFANTS as members.

Nothing else can be said. It is like talking to a Roman Catholic as there is no common authority to discuss anything as your final authority is the same as Rome's - traditions, councils, creeds, traditions and personal opinions.

With regard to the scriptures there is no lack of clarity that baptism stands FIRST in importance with regard to the very first step AFTER salvation. With regard to the Scriptures it ALWAYS precedes church membership. With regard to the Scriptures when you pervert a gospel symbol you pervert the gospel and paedobaptists pervert the gospel symbol. They not only pervert the gospel symbol but they pervert the metaphorical "body of Christ" and metaphorical "members" when they INTENTIONALLY include unregenerate members who neither profess Christ by mouth or by baptism.

With regard to the Scriptures, I challenge anyone to find any congregation in the pages of the New Testament consisting of unbaptized members, of infants, of unimmersed believers.

With regard to the Scriptures. I challenge anyone to find any precept that promotes, allows or permits the existence of unbaptized congregations called "the congregations of Christ."

Apostasy occurred among the 1689 Baptists and spread all over England. Thank God, such apostasy was curtailed among many Baptists in America BEFORE the rise of Graves or other Landmarkers. In 1838 in the Georgia Baptist Association we read:

From these proposition, thus established, we draw the following inferences, as clear and certain truths,


I. That all churches and ministers, who originated since the apostles, and not successively to them, are not in gospel order; and therefore cannot be acknowledged as such.


II. That all, who have been ordained to the work of the ministry without the knowledge and call of the church, by popes, councils, &c. are the creatures of those who constituted them, and not the servants of Christ, or his church, and therefore have no right to administer for them.


III. That those who have set aside the discipline of the gospel, and have given law to, and exercised dominion over the church, are usurpers over the place and office of Christ, are against him; and therefore may not be accepted in their offices.


IV. That they, who administer contrary to their own, or the faith of the gospel, cannot administer for God; since without the gospel faith he has nothing to minister; and without their own he accepts no service; therefore the administrations of such are unwarrantable impositions in any way.


Our reasons, therefore for rejecting baptism by immersion when administered by Pedobaptist ministers, are,


I. That they are connected with churches clearly out of the apostolic succession, and therefore clearly out of the apostolic commission…….


But if it should be said, that the apostolic succession cannot be ascertained, and then it is proper to act without it; we say, that the loss of the succession can never prove it futile, nor justify any one out of it. The Pedobaptists, by their own histories, admit they are not of it; but we do not, and shall think ourselves entitled to the claim, until the reverse be clearly shown. And should any think authority derived from the MOTHER HARLOTS, sufficient to qualify to administer a gospel ordinance, they will be so charitable as not to condemn us for preferring that derived from Christ. And should any still more absurdly plead that ordination, received from an individual, is sufficient; we leave them to shew what is the use of ordination, and why it exists. If any think an administration will suffice which has no pattern in the gospel; they will suffer us to act according to the divine order with impunity. And if it should be said that faith in the subject is all that is necessary, we beg leave to require it where the scriptures do, that is every where. But we must close: we beseech you brethren while you hold fast the form of your profession, be ready to unite with those from whom you differ, as far as the principles of eternal truth will justify. And while you firmly oppose that shadowy union, so often urged, be instant in prayer and exert yourselves to bring about that which is in heart, and after godliness. Which the Lord hasten in its season. Amen and Amen. - A. M. MARSHALL, Moderator. JESSE MERCER, Clerk. – Jesse Mercer, History of the Georgia Baptist Association, 1838, pp. 126-127. (emphasis mine)

Ridicule this as you will, but one thing you cannot charge it to and that is Landmarkism as Graves had not even appeared on the scene. I can trace this same indentical belief all the way back to the 1640-1660 England Associational Baptists and then to the Anabaptists of Europe,

The Protestant Reformer Henry Bullinger confirms the fact that these apostolic churches rejected both Protestant and Catholic churches and their ordinances when he says of them:

The Anabaptists think themselves to the only true church of Christ, and acceptable to God; and teach that they, who by baptism are received into their churches, ought not to have communion [fellowship] with [those called] evangelical, or any other whatsoever: for that our-[i.e., evangelical Protestant, or reformed] churches are not true churches, any more than the churches of the Papists.” - J.R. Graves, Old Landmarkism What Is It? (reprint by Calvary Baptist Church Book Shop, Ashland, KY) p.

and then to the Waldenses who claimed their historical origin with the Donatists. This belief system cannot be charged to 1851 Landmarkism. Moreover, it can be sustained by the Scriptures themselves, especially clear Biblical principles found in the Great Commission itself.

Remember, this is not about questioning their salvation, but only their obedience to God's clear teaching with regard to the church and its ordinances.

 

The truth is that the Bible teaches that all who are saved by Jesusare now Baptized into the Church of Christ, which is His Universal Church, that assembles in local church bodies, and the Bible states that we agree on the essentials of the Fait Paul gives to u in Ephesins, and tht we can also freely disagree on Grey areas like second coming timing and modes of baptizing!

 

rvate

Very interesting that Gd sees us all as One in Christ, if savdby Hisgrace, regardless Baptist, Presby/Aog/Methodits etc, yet we cannot even agree among Baptists who is really saved!

I would disagree with say a reformed Presby on Baptism mode/second coming timing/church leadership, but still saed and part of the Church!

 

I have news for you. Paedobaptists have administered immersion to converts wishing that form of baptism. Paedobaptists immersed infants in early English history and there is clear archeological evidence for that. But they have no authority to baptize anyone as that belongs to NT congregations of immersed believers

 

You have nothing worth hearing as it is all tradition based or opinion based. Our discussion is over and I will leave it to the readers to judge who is really representing the Word of God.

 

That was my posting, ta Paul sums it up in tha passage, as we are all one in Chrst, One in His Body, regardless of church labels, how we view non essentials of te aith suc Baptism modes, Timing of Scond Coming, chuch leadership/worship styles etc!

 

Where does the bible say any of this?

 

This is not acceptable Y1.
How many times does everyone have to ask you for a biblical basis for your view?
No one cares what you think or say.......unless you show it biblically.
No one cares what I say or think.....unless I can show it biblically.
We might even settle for you quoting error as long as you offer scripture to attempt to back up your statements.
The reason is unless you can text scriptural thoughts, error is inevitable and without the scriptures there is no real response needed to your random texting in tongues......

 

Ephesians 4 clearly states that ALL who are saved are in ONE Body, and that is the true Church of Christ!
One body, many branches, some Baptists, others Reformed, others Anglican, and while some churches teach much closer to real biblical truths, all still in same Body!

 

Who is the elders and deacons of that one body......when do they have the Lord's supper? who have they baptized this week?.........do you see the difficulty here?

 

Now, Martin that is simply not true and you know it. I have taken a precise position that was offered in the OP and have defended it and the only time I appealed to anything other than scripture was to demonstrate you are in error when you claim my position occurred with J.R.Graves or in 1851 as I documented it long before Graves in 1838 in 1640-1660 and early.

 

Whenever theey gather in their local assemblies, regardless labeled, idf they are preaching/teaching truth, then is Church gathering! I attend each Sunday at a Baptist Church, you might at reformed, another IBF, but all of those gathering together represent church in that location!

 

It is pointless discussing with you because you just assert your own opinions without any scripture to support you and when you are confronted with any exegetical based problems you just ignore them and reassert your opinions. Learn how to defend your opinions with scripture and don't be afraid to look at Biblcal evidence that challenges your opinions.

 

yes.....but that is the point, they are local......a deacon in your church, is not a deacon in my church.....for your own good.....use scripture....If you have trouble remembering the verses....take notes, make a notebook that is topical and refer to it.