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Featured Defrocking a Baptist pastor

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Salty, Dec 14, 2016.

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  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    RSR - in another thread asked this question: "because no one seems to have the authority to revoke ordination should the minister prove to be a rogue or worse."

    So who can defrock an ordained Baptist pastor -
    If the answer is the local church which ordained -
    than what happens if that church disbands:
     
    #1 Salty, Dec 14, 2016
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Churches have withdrawn ordination, but I think that this is more akin to withdrawing approval or support No one can defrock a pastor insofar as allowing him to pastor another church. It is up to the local church to investigate and hire their own pastor.
     
    #2 JonC, Dec 14, 2016
  3. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Wolves dressed like sheep: This was really not a major issue until we started the practice of church plants, LLCs, hirelings, paid musicians and staff. A born again congregation being lead by The Spirit, The Holy, has a discernment about such things.

    Throw in a little preacher rule, deacon board rule and a little F&AM. Such situations are also a reaping of lack of church discipline. See I Corinthians, the whole letter. The Lord turned them around: see II Corinthians, the whole letter.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #3 Bro. James, Dec 15, 2016
  4. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Unless you are in a denomination with some authority over ordination at a higher level than the local church, absolutely nothing can be done except by the local church. For Baptists, that usually means there's not a lot a church can do beyond the step JonC mentioned.
     
    #4 StefanM, Dec 15, 2016
  5. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Oh, and one final point. I don't think it matters if a local church disbands. It's not like a whole-church annulment. The acts the church did before disbanding were valid (hopefully) when done, and they would remain so, as long as the disbanding of the local church was somehow related to the situation. Then it would be a bit trickier.
     
    #5 StefanM, Dec 15, 2016
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He can be"defrocked" from your group/association/denomination, bu can always start up own church!
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Dec 15, 2016
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Not in baptist churches he cannot
     
    #7 Revmitchell, Dec 15, 2016
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In Baptist churches association's and conventions are not governing bodies. I could be defrocked, banned, excommunicated, tared and feathered yet hired by another church.
     
    #8 JonC, Dec 15, 2016
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I cannot be defrocked. I do not wear frocks.
     
    #9 Revmitchell, Dec 15, 2016
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That defrocking just counts in that specific Baptist group, correct?
     
    #10 Yeshua1, Dec 15, 2016
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, because each church can choose whom ever they will. It might get the church kicked out of that organization, but they are free churches.
     
    #11 JonC, Dec 15, 2016
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  12. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Autonomy is the glory and the bane of Baptists. Jack Schaap, who had an adulterous affair with a teenager, is, so far as I know, still "ordained" as a Baptist minister. This should not be, brethren. The local congregation should be free to select its ministers, but the fact that once upon a time some congregation somewhere saw fit to "ordain" a person should not carry forward some suggestion that person is fit to serve elsewhere. And that is the practical effect that "ordination" has in Baptist churches.

    At least Jimmy Swaggart had to abandon the Assemblies of God to reassume his ministry because he would not submit to the denomination's strictures.
     
    #12 rsr, Dec 15, 2016
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I think that this is an issue of local church discernment. A pastor who is immoral should not pastor a church, I agree. But the reason he should not pastor a church is not that a governing body external to the local church deemed the man unfit, but instead because the local church itself, as the local expression of the Body of Christ, set aside as a holy people, recognizes sin and deems the man unfit.
     
    #13 JonC, Dec 15, 2016
  14. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    You have made my point. At some point the local congregation should say not only that a person is unfit to be our pastor but also that the person is unfit to be anyone's pastor, i.e., he is not 'ordained" to the gospel ministry. That is well within the congregation's power. It's not done, and that is a shame. Churches have full power to exercise discipline, and it should be extended to false prophets. Many a church would been spared grief if only another church had withdrawn its approval of an apostate.
     
    #14 rsr, Dec 15, 2016
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  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    And, every church is different. Except as a deacon, I was never ordained because my church viewed ordination as for a specific position or office. I was licensed, which was to show that they approved of my calling and teaching (and that I could, as a representative of that church, perform baptisms, marriages, funerals, etc.). I really don't know, but I take for granted that since I am no longer a member of that church I am no longer licensed by that church. I think perhaps ordination should be done the same. One church ordains to a specific office, but from there it is up to the current church to evaluate and affirm the calling.

    That said, I do think we may put too much emphasis on ordination. It is good insofar as it is the confirmation of the local church. And I suppose it is also good in that it is the sending of the local church. But beyond that, it can get a bit sacramental....like Spurgeon once said - "Empty hands on empty heads".
     
    #15 JonC, Dec 15, 2016
  16. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    Many have erred by watering down the congregational form of Church government. Some have deacon committees filled with freemasons making decisions for their churches. This is an indicator of poor Church discipline.

    Much of this issue goes back to the universal church doctrine. The term Local Church is a misnomer. It implies that there is some other form of Church. A New Testament Church is local, local, local--always has been. There is no outside influence--boards, synods or governments.

    We spend a lot of time and money planting churches and counting souls, saved and almost persuaded yet still lost. The warm and fuzzy conversion may last a long time--it is not true conversion.

    The Book of Jude describes our situation. See especially verse three.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #16 Bro. James, Dec 16, 2016
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Very well stated.
    I agree, but I have also wondered exactly how the Jerusalem council (which did prescribe doctrine) fits in to this. Is it something that fell under "apostolic authority"?
     
    #17 JonC, Dec 16, 2016
  18. Bro. James

    Bro. James Well-Known Member
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    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is an interesting point. This may have to do with knowing in part and prophesying in part until that which is perfect is come; also, looking through a dark glass. The first Church was still sitting in Jerusalem when Jerusalem was razed to the ground by the Romans in 70 AD. The Christians were scattered as well as the Jews. The Gospel went all over the known world, sometimes even with the Roman Legions.
    One must still determine who got the authority in Mt. 16 and 28. The Apostles are dead and gone. The New Testament Church is still here with the indwelling of The Holy Spirit from the Day of Pentecost.

    A sizeable portion of Christendom believe the authority for Church is handed through the Bishopric of Peter. This includes the Catholics and the Protestants. If that be true, True Baptists, etal, have a problem: Rome does not delegate authority to anyone. Some Body is usurping.

    Jude 3 refers to: "The Faith, once, for all, delivered to the Saints," not the holy see or the pope.

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #18 Bro. James, Dec 16, 2016
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    That is what ANY Baptist Minister should do if defrocked, as NO Baptist church should rehire them!
    Force them to go independent and start own church...
     
    #19 Yeshua1, Dec 16, 2016
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Regardless if under autonomy or not, as Church still must follow Biblical standards!
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Dec 16, 2016
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