Carry your cross, follow Jesus, die to self -- for eternal life

[JonShaff]

I wish someone somewhere could read and understand Romans 6:16-23.
Paul offers a choice:
Be a slave of obedience, which results in righteousness and holiness and eternal life,
or ...
Be a slave of sin, which results in eternal death.

It is so slam-dunk easy to see (for me anyway).

Kinda like seeing the complete idiocy of RCC doctrine.
Just how can those people have been so blind all of those years?
Answer: Satan's deceptions, leadership greed, man's mis-placed trust in man, etc.

For the umpteenth time, Paul is not giving a "choice"...he is explaining the New Creation in Christ...New realities for a believer...

You ARE NOW a slave to righeousness!

22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.

 

[TCassidy]

Good olde Article 3.
But, I prefer to quote the NT verses which combined say:
man is totally unable to choose Jesus and His Gospel
w/o first receiving a tiny seed of faith from God.

My posting Article 3 of the Remonstrance was to correct your misunderstanding expressed in your quote.

Sorry, I though Arminian was to believe ...
man has free will to choose to believe Jesus and His Gospel.

Now you know that is not what Arminians believe.

 

[utilyan]

For the umpteenth time, Paul is not giving a "choice"...he is explaining the New Creation in Christ...New realities for a believer...

You ARE NOW a slave to righeousness!

22 But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto sanctification, and the end eternal life.

Amen brother!

So explain what he is saying here:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

 

[JonC]

Now you know that is not what Arminians believe.

I actually think he doesn't.

 

[JonShaff]

Amen brother!

So explain what he is saying here:

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

These are rhetorical questions...He is addressing the opposition, probably Judaizers who don't believe justification is by grace through faith alone.

Paul is addressing someone who'd be like, "OK, suuuuure! So now what, do we go on sinning because of allllllll this grace???"

And Paul is like, "um, no. You are no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. God has given you new desires and the ability to live for His good pleasure."

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

 

[TCassidy]

I actually think he doesn't.

I agree. He seems to have a pattern of not knowing anything about what he is arguing against.

 

[utilyan]

I wish someone somewhere could read and understand Romans 6:16-23.
Paul offers a choice:
Be a slave of obedience, which results in righteousness and holiness and eternal life,
or ...
Be a slave of sin, which results in eternal death.

It is so slam-dunk easy to see (for me anyway).

Kinda like seeing the complete idiocy of RCC doctrine.
Just how can those people have been so blind all of those years?
Answer: Satan's deceptions, leadership greed, man's mis-placed trust in man, etc.

Its funny, Your the closest one to give catholic doctrine. Maybe I can hear your doctrine and the catholic one next to each other. By catholic doctrine, quote me some catholic catechism not a hearsay he said she said.

 

[utilyan]

These are rhetorical questions...He is addressing the opposition, probably Judaizers who don't believe justification is by grace through faith alone.

Paul is addressing someone who'd be like, "OK, suuuuure! So now what, do we go on sinning because of allllllll this grace???"

And Paul is like, "um, no. You are no longer a slave to sin, but a slave to righteousness. God has given you new desires and the ability to live for His good pleasure."

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Have you stopped sinning? OR "OK, suuuuure! So now what, do we go on sinning because of allllllll this grace???"

 

[Samuels]

For the umpteenth time, Paul is not giving a "choice"...he is explaining the New Creation in Christ...New realities for a believer...You ARE NOW a slave to righeousness!

Unfortunately, you just do not understand Paul's method of writing to Christian churches.
In this case, he is either:
1) saying you are supposed to be a slave
2) hinting tongue-in-cheek that they are
3) both of the above (which I favor)

Note 6:19 where he tells them: submit your members as slaves of righteousness,
i.e. they are really NOT living as slaves!

 

[JonShaff]

Unfortunately, you just do not understand Paul's method of writing to Christian churches.
In this case, he is either:
1) saying you are supposed to be a slave
2) hinting tongue-in-cheek that they are
3) both of the above (which I favor)

Note 6:19 where he tells them: submit your members as slaves of righteousness,
i.e. they are really NOT living as slaves!

You are imposing your opinion into the text. He is contrasting what they did as LOST PEOPLE, UNREGENERATES

 

[utilyan]

You are imposing your opinion into the text. He is contrasting what they did as LOST PEOPLE, UNREGENERATES

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


If it was self-evident he wouldn't have questioned their knowledge. Even the immediate logic of what he is saying would not work with your theology. Because a person would be incapable of presenting themselves servants of one thing or another, since under your system only God chooses and initiates who his servant who then is ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED forever bound as obedient to righteousness.

Even if "unregenerate" did something good not being born again you still bound him as servant of sin.


You couldn't agree with Paul here. Its a simple formula given.

Those who do good serve righteousness and those who sin serve evil. You wouldn't agree with Paul here. Because only those who a marked righteous are righteous rather then those who behave it.

 

[Yeshua1]

Well you and I might have differ understanding of being "saved" means.

For example:
I think you need to be IN TROUBLE......to be saved.

I don't think you have to be saint at ALL to be saved.

Did you call the fire department today because your house IS NOT on fire?



To enter HEAVEN, However, SINNERS are not allowed in HEAVEN.

Now let me provide you scripture that say this.

Revelations 21

27and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.


Sinning is a NO-NO.

Heaven = sin bad Okay?



Why do you think there is sinning in heaven?

NONE who ever got to heaven were able to stop sinning fully!

 

[Yeshua1]

You are imposing your opinion into the text. He is contrasting what they did as LOST PEOPLE, UNREGENERATES

You are correct, as Contax would be contrasting saved now slaves to Christ, and lost slaves to sin/flesh!

 

[Samuels]

You are imposing your opinion into the text.
He is contrasting what they did as LOST PEOPLE, UNREGENERATES

The contrast is included, of course ... I can read.
But, there's much more to it than that.
Paul's normal method is:
Warnings in the midst of many edifications/encouragements.
But, you are blind to this.

We always impose our opinions on the text, which come from the Holy Spirit.
I prefer to call them revelations!
IMO, you prefer your supposed revelations over mine.
His #1 method of leading us into all truth is through the Scriptures
... via many large and small revelations.
It's called following the Spirit, being led of the Spirit, etc.

 

[Samuels]

... his servant who then is ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED
is forever bound as obedient to righteousness.

Many believe this nonsense!
The NT is full of warnings against this very thing!

All men are born into spiritual idiocy!
Many born-again believers still have a certain amount of this.
They just have NOT been led into even close to all spiritual Truth as of yet.
MANY issues are available for holding them back:
false teachers, false doctrines, false biases, etc.

Satan is the greatest liar and deceiver in the history of the world.

 

[Samuels]

NONE who ever got to heaven were able to stop sinning fully!

Yes, Zach and Liz did NOT have the indwelling Spirit,
but they were totally righteous, etc. before God (Luke 1).
They went to heaven w/o stopping from sinning.
IMO, they were big-time repenters.
And Jonny-boy will say I'm adding my opinion to the text.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes, Zach and Liz did NOT have the indwelling Spirit,
but they were totally righteous, etc. before God (Luke 1).
They went to heaven w/o stopping from sinning.
IMO, they were big-time repenters.
And Jonny-boy will say I'm adding my opinion to the text.

Thy were NOT rightious in same sense as those now saved by Jesus are! and there are NO examples of ANY except Jesus ever stop sinning!

 

[Samuels]

God has given you new desires and the ability to live for His good pleasure.

Of course he has!
But, they have other desires also ... to sin.

Paul is saying,
"May we continue sinning because God has given us His grace? NO!
Now, choose the correct course of action, which is to be a slave of obedience!
You guys have the ability to do it, now do it. And if you choose correctly,
the result is righteousness and holiness and eternal life.
The opposite course of action results in eternal death."

Now, for my question ...
Must the Holy Spirit reveal to the born-again believer what is meant in the NT,
or can he/she figure it out ... just by reading the black/red on white?

One answer is ... the Holy Spirit cannot really reveal spiritual Truth to one
who has been deceived/blinded by false doctrines!
People have to be OPEN to receive new spiritual Truths,
i.e. corrections to previously-held doctrines.

Oh wait, I know, Baptists have all spiritual Truth already
... nuttin' else to learn and understand.

 

[Yeshua1]

Of course he has!
But, they have other desires also ... to sin.

Paul is saying,
"May we continue sinning because God has given us His grace? NO!
Now, choose the correct course of action, which is to be a slave of obedience!
You guys have the ability to do it, now do it. And if you choose correctly,
the result is righteousness and holiness and eternal life.
The opposite course of action results in eternal death."

Now, for my question ...
Must the Holy Spirit reveal to the born-again believer what is meant in the NT,
or can he/she figure it out ... just by reading the black/red on white?

One answer is ... the Holy Spirit cannot really reveal spiritual Truth to one
who has been deceived/blinded by false doctrines!
People have to be OPEN to receive new spiritual Truths,
i.e. corrections to previously-held doctrines.

Oh wait, I know, Baptists have all spiritual Truth already
... nuttin' else to learn and understand.

Are you talking about some new revelation, maybe some Charasmatic doctrines?

 

[utilyan]

NONE who ever got to heaven were able to stop sinning fully!

Scripture says someone who has not stopped sinning cannot enter heaven. I'm not making that up, that is in the bible. Revelations 21.

Your saying you can still sin in heaven, provide scripture.