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Featured If God Never decreed/ordained the Fall...

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 25, 2017.

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Would Man have fallen?

  1. Most certainly

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  2. No

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  3. I don't know

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  4. It is impossible to know

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  5. I don't care

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  6. He never ordained the Fall in the first place.

    4 vote(s)
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  1. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Wherefore, in ordaining the Fall of man especially, God had an end most glorious and most just; an end, into our contemplation of which the mention or idea of sin on the part of God can never enter; the very thought of its entrance strikes us with horror!~John Calvin,a Treatise on Eternal Predestination of God
    https://www.monergism.com/treatise-eternal-predestination-god-john-calvin

    Answering the question helps crack this vocabulary of ordaining. I have quoted John Calvin himself as a reference point lest I be charged with defining other's beliefs.

    Please support your response with a brief answer.
     
    #1 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If God never planned on man falling then God's purpose uncreating would never have been redemptive and Christ would not be "the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world".

    Logic dictates that if the Provision was made ready before the "need", then the event necessitating the Provision was pre-determined.
     
    #2 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  3. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Perfect future knowledge would equally explain provision before the 'need'.

    I know it will rain. I plan to and actually carry an umbrella well before it pours. It pours, I use my umbrella. Future knowledge suffices to 'use' the umbrella before it rains. 'Planning' or 'predetermining' the rain is unnecessary.

    God knowing well that Adam will sin, He slays the Lamb before creating Adam. 'Planning' or 'predetermining' Adam sinning is only necessary if Adam would not have otherwise sinned. And if Adam would not have otherwise sinned, then God made him sin;He authored Sin.
     
    #3 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That is not logically consistent. If God knew that in creating Adam sin would enter the world, and this was not God's intent, then God would have (by your "logic") still have authored evil.

    Your only logical position is a full open theistic stance. Then you only have to wrestle with inconsistencies between your view and Scripture (which you can attribute to God's Word in reality being a narrative of the human experience in relationship with God and therefore subjective).
     
    #4 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  5. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    God's intent was in creating relational being. This is only accomplished by creating man free to or not to relate to Him. Sin is a consequence of this freedom.

    God is not culpable for free decisions of his creature, which is why in His sovereignty he made them free so he does not author their decisions.

    I don't like repeating myself but I once told you there is a difference between creating a world where sin is possible, and making one where it is impossible not to Sin.
    Open theism has indeterminate future. This is unnecessary; what's there to prevent God from perfect foreknowledge of all possible contingent events?


    You need to try harder than stereotyping
     
    #5 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Here is a test - and a proof of my assertion. Your post concludes with a logical fallacy (at least 2 fallacies, perhaps 3). Can you identify them?

    Since they were your words, probably not....right? This is what I mean. Our reasoning is not always objective and the level of subjectivity varies from person to person.
     
    #6 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  7. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    God did not ordain nor decree the Fall. Would Adam sin under these circumstances?
     
    #7 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Whether God has decreed all things that ever come to pass or not, he certainly knew all things before hand. I'm glad we agree here. But if God knew all things beforehand, then he must either approve of them or disapprove of them in "eternity past", prior to Creation. That is, God is either willing that they should be, or he is not willing that they should be.

    There is a logical inconsistency in your reasoning that God, not willing that these things should be, willed through Creation that they would certainly occur. You make God the author of evil, I suspect by leaning on your "logic" rather than his Word.

    Here are a few more issues - you presuppose definitions in your formulas. For example (only one) you say if it is sin for man then it is sin for God...but you take this as an assumption. There are so many things you assume, but have failed to prove or even address in your "logical conclusions".
     
    #8 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Before Creation, was God willing, or not willing, that sin enter the world?
     
    #9 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  10. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Great

    Or simply allow/permit even what He does not approve.

    You abuse the word logical inconsistency. Demonstrate it.
    Demonstrate it.

    Imaginary conclusions. Authoring sin is simply authoring Sin. Whoever conceived and executes or causes to be executed an idea is the author.
     
    #10 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  11. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Not Willing.


    Now answer my question
     
    #11 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  12. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Then why create the conditions in the first place?

    If you don't issue any commands, and you don't create any restrictions to violate, it would literally be impossible to sin.
     
    #12 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Man did not sin because there were conditions but because He was created relational..free to love God. He chose not to.

    If Adam could not have sinned, then it follows ordaining is what caused him to Sin. Why is Adam culpable/judgement-worthy? On what basis does God judge man?
     
    #13 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  14. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    According to the Genesis account, there was also a sinful tempting influence in the serpent and the direct opportunity to violate God's command by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

    Without temptation, without any restrictions, and without any real external reason, why would a man or woman without a sin nature have any desire to choose that?
     
    #14 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
  15. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    The answer is simple; Adam was FREE. What makes you think FREE beings need any incentive to choose?

    Did God will that 200 Americans jump to their deaths in September 11 2001 ?

    No? Why did he create conditions for this?
     
    #15 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Let's look at your logic first.

    You have said that God knew if he put Adam in the Garden he would sin. But you say God was not willing that Adam sin. Yet you seem to believe God not only planted the Garden, but he also put Adam there knowing for certain he would sin. And now you say God did all of this unwillingly. God acted against his will because, as your conclusion seems to logically unfold, he is enslaved to man. How low a view of God your logic produces :(.
     
    #16 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  17. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Correct
    Correct
    Correct
    Where did I say that?
    How so?
    A God of your imagination. You have made false claims for which I should report you only I don't know to whom seeing you are the gods of this forum:Biggrin
     
    #17 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If 1+1=2, and I know that 1+1=2, but I am unwillingly to get 2 as a result then (logically) I would not add 1 and 1.

    You are presenting a "logic" bent to your theogical dispositions. You say God knows 1+1 =2, is not willing to get 2 as a result, but does it anyway willingly.
     
    #18 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
  19. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    False analogy. Creation produces more than one outcome whereas 1+1 can only produce 2. But mathematics is not for everyone:Roflmao

    When will you vote?
     
    #19 Agent47, Jan 25, 2017
  20. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    In orthodox Christian theologies, people after the fall are understood to have been born with a sinful nature. That removes the freedom not to sin, and it corrupts decisions.

    The events of 9/11 are irrelevant.

    A being uncorrupted by sin would be in a totally different scenario. If you have no inclination toward sin, why would you choose it?
     
    #20 StefanM, Jan 25, 2017
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