• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Calvin on "total depravity"

Status
Not open for further replies.
A

AndThisGospel

Member
Now, if by "totally depravity" Calvin meant we are born bent-to-self or self-seeking, I would agree with him. But that's not what he said. He implies that the image of God was totally eradicated within our humanity. Hence, "total depravity".

Now, just for clarification, I do not believe that Calvin is lost because some of his doctrines are incorrect. We are all imperfect and make mistakes, but ultimately we must go to the Bible ourselves and lean, not on men, but on God's Spirit.

You see when Adam fell into sin his human love had all the qualities of God’s love except the direction for that love. Agape, instead of going only outward, did a u-turn towards self so that he now loved himself spontaneously & unconditionally. This is our human predicament because we are born knowing only self-love...we are born self-centered.

Proof:
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Martin Marprelate said:
No. 'Therefore, if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Corinthians 5:17).

The believer has died to sin (Romans 6:2 etc.). However, there remains, not in the believer, but in his 'flesh' or 'members,' a relic of the old nature which is constantly dragging him down. 'Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey its lusts' (Romans 6:12). He doesn't say, "Do not let sin reign in you" because that would contradict what he said earlier. We are to 'put to death' (Colossians 3:5) this relic of our old nature since it is something alien to us as believers. 'Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me' (Romans 7:20).
Click to expand...
So would you be stating here tha the old nature once renewed/recreated is thus the new nature, thedfalln nature made alive again in Christ?.
So wen Christians do sin, or become carnal in the senseof not maturing, than is tha not thei old nature establishing a foothold again?
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AndThisGospel said:
Now, if by "totally depravity" Calvin meant we are born bent-to-self or self-seeking, I would agree with him. But that's not what he said. He implies that the image of God was totally eradicated within our humanity. Hence, "total depravity".

Now, just for clarification, I do not believe that Calvin is lost because some of his doctrines are incorrect. We are all imperfect and make mistakes, but ultimately we must go to the Bible ourselves and lean, not on men, but on God's Spirit.

You see when Adam fell into sin his human love had all the qualities of God’s love except the direction for that love. Agape, instead of going only outward, did a u-turn towards self so that he now loved himself spontaneously & unconditionally. This is our human predicament because we are born knowing only self-love...we are born self-centered.

Proof:
Click to expand...
No, Calvin insisted hat we still are humans, created in his own image, but the fall devasted and marred that image, so still can think, have emotions, act, but in the area of the things that are spirtual, we can do nothing to affect the effect of the fall apart from the saving work of God towards the elect in Christ!
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AndThisGospel said:

Does a believer still retain a "fallen nature"?
Click to expand...
We still have our flesh and mind, that were both affected/mared by the Fall, so in our spiritual states dead in sin, but now alivin Christ!

So there is still the Sin principle atill at work in our inner members now, resisiting God...
 
A

AndThisGospel

Member
Yeshua1 said:
No, Calvin insisted that we still are humans, created in his own image, but the fall devasted and marred that image, so still can think, have emotions, act, but in the area of the things that are spirtual, we can do nothing to affect the effect of the fall apart from the saving work of God towards the elect in Christ!
Click to expand...

I'll need Biblical proof that we are in His image...
 
utilyan

utilyan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yeshua1 said:
No, Calvin insisted hat we still are humans, created in his own image, but the fall devasted and marred that image, so still can think, have emotions, act, but in the area of the things that are spirtual, we can do nothing to affect the effect of the fall apart from the saving work of God towards the elect in Christ!
Click to expand...

You can't have it this way. If you say there is nothing good of man, you have reached a point there is NO IMAGE OF GOD and there is NO MAN HERE AT ALL.

In fact NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.......because there is NOTHING GOOD TO SAVE!

When's the last time anyone jumped into water to save dung floating!? That's the claim you make with God. That God saves worthless things.

Snow covered Dung instead of Dung covered Snow. You say man is evil "by nature" even.

If there is Nothing good there, there is NO SAVING, ZERO, ZLITCH, NADA.


This is an utter failure of false humility trying to ONE UP other people in "humbleness"

Oh im wrectched sinner beat my chest blah blah blah, on look we ALL are we have the sin natures and the gingivitis. That the gate to salvation requires a person to believe themselves just absolutely worthless.

That vanity is called FALSE HUMILITY.

A person sins because they WANT TO SIN and it is thier FAULT, period.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
utilyan said:
You can't have it this way. If you say there is nothing good of man, you have reached a point there is NO IMAGE OF GOD and there is NO MAN HERE AT ALL.

In fact NO ONE CAN BE SAVED.......because there is NOTHING GOOD TO SAVE!

When's the last time anyone jumped into water to save dung floating!? That's the claim you make with God. That God saves worthless things.

Snow covered Dung instead of Dung covered Snow. You say man is evil "by nature" even.

If there is Nothing good there, there is NO SAVING, ZERO, ZLITCH, NADA.


This is an utter failure of false humility trying to ONE UP other people in "humbleness"

Oh im wrectched sinner beat my chest blah blah blah, on look we ALL are we have the sin natures and the gingivitis. That the gate to salvation requires a person to believe themselves just absolutely worthless.

That vanity is called FALSE HUMILITY.

A person sins because they WANT TO SIN and it is thier FAULT, period.
Click to expand...
Calvin, and the Bible, did NOT state that humans are always evil and wicked sinners, but tha we canot ever do anythingby and in ourselves to merit salvation!
 
MennoSota

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
AndThisGospel said:
Here's the part I disagree with: men "..apart from the efficacious ... grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God."

Peter states that "The gospel was preached also to those who are dead" (1 Peter 4:6), i.e., "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph 2:1).

Paul tells us that this is a spiritual death: "We know that the law (the measuring stick of righteousness) is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." Rom 7:14

How does "sin" manifest itself? "Sin is the transgression of the law." (1 John 3:4) But what is sin (singular)? Sin is not just breaking rules. If that's all sin is then the Pharisees kept all the rules of the Torah plus they added some of their own, but Christ, speaking of the Pharisees, said "all they do is to be seen of men".

What then is "sin", singular. Well, Paul said, "I would not have known sin (singular) except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, 'You shall not covet.'" (Rom 7:7)

What is "coveting, is it an outward act? No! Coveting is not an act, but a desire. "Coveting" is really "self-seeking" something we are all born with.

Go to 1 cor 13:3 "If I gave everything I have to the poor ... I could boast about it". In other words outwardly I've done something good (and would be praised by men), but inwardly the motive is so "I could boast". Doing the right thing outwardly for the wrong motive is the essence of sin.

What then is "sin"? I've already touched on this: Sin = self-seeking. Sin is the opposite of agape. We are told by the Apostle Paul that "(agape)...is not self-seeking" (1 Cor 13:5). Therefore the essence of sin is self-seeking.

Now turn to 1 Cor 10:24 (KJV):

"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."​

Self-seeking is sin. It is a condition we are born with. In the Old Testament they called sin "iniquity". The root meaning of this word is “crooked” or “bent.” Scripture uses it to describe our natural spiritual condition. The term iniquity does not primarily refer to an act of sin but to a condition of sinfulness. As a result of the Fall, men and women are by nature spiritually “bent.” The love of self is the driving force of our natures. Paul defines this as “the law of sin and death” that is at work in our lives [Romans 8:2; cf. 7:23]. It is this condition that underlies all our sinning and makes us slaves to sin [see Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Tell me, who among us is "without sin"? Remember sin is self-seeking. Sin is loving yourself. Sin is seeking your own wealth instead of your neighbor's. That's why the law demands that you "love your neighbors as you love yourself". The law demands "agape", not self-love (self-seeking).

Now, when someone gives you the good news of salvation in Christ, can you respond? Sure! Why? You love yourself and you certainly do not want to die in the fires of hell. Mansions in heaven ain't a bad deal either. So we can come to Christ, by faith, albeit for selfish motives.

So Calvin is wrong. We can believe when we hear the gospel. We can choose God. Then God's Spirit comes in and dwells in our minds & hearts. Thus God changes the heart & mind, but He doesn't change our natures.
Click to expand...

Amazingly convoluted reasoning on your part. It's easier to just say you are wrong than to try wade through the reasons one by one.
 
MennoSota

MennoSota

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
utilyan said:
Sin nature is oxymoron because SIN is a UNATURAL abomination.

All nature is God created and GOOD or its not nature at all. If anything is corrupted to the point no good remains then neither anything natural remains.
Click to expand...

Thus the impetus of sin is entirely mankind's fault. It is passed on from Adam to the present.

The term "sin nature" has nothing to do with God and everything to do with humanity. Our corruption came at the fall. We are, by virtue of the fall, born in sin.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top