Featured Partial Preterism – promotion, objections & relevance today.

Thank you for opening this thread. I look forward to participating in it as time allows. Your 'basic assumptions' are generally excellent; I make just two comments.

I think you'll find they do!

I would add to that, the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in glory and the Eternal State (eg. Isaiah 65:17ff).

I will add one other thing which has nothing to do with you personally. On the previous thread there were constant unsubstantiated attacks and sarcasm directed towards Dispensationalists. This really is unhelpful and serves no purpose As far as I am concerned, every eschatological belief that allows for the return of our Lord Jesus Christ in glory is OK by me. Inevitably one view (mine! ) is right and the rest wrong, and that's why we discuss them, but let's remember that we are all brothers in Christ.

 

The interesting thing about this is that we have to take into consideration that the New Testament reveals certain issues to be figurative. Hebrews does this numerous times, an example being the "Rest" that is spoken of in regards to Israel then (during the Provocation/Rebellion/in the Wilderness) and the Rest we have in Christ, making it plain that while there was a literal rest for the people of God (Israel/Hebrews) there yet remained a Rest (to which he called his people to embrace Christ and the New Covenant. Another might be the parable that Levitical Service represented (yet which still held a literal fulfillment) for the People of God.

For me what is to be held in the figurative sense seems fairly easy to identify, but I think that each passage and prophecy has to be examined in detail and placed into a proper Prophetic Context. Then we can see what is literal and what is figurative, and whether the figurative still holds a literal aspect (which is usually does).

So in large part I would say yes, though I would also temper that with stating that while there is a literal truth to be uncovered in all Prophecy, that doesn't mean that every word has to be held in a figurative sense.

I take the view that at this current time yes to the first question but no to the second.

I believe Israel will be saved nationally and will figure prominently in the Millennial Kingdom. Ultimately they will be regenerate sons of God like as we, and we will all be the One People of God in the Eternal State, but, I do not see them at any time losing their National distinction (in the temporal).

Not even close, lol.

No. At this time the current ministry of God in the lives of men is primarily performed through the Spirit of God through the Ministry of the Comforter. It is in this Age alone that the Gospel of Christ has been revealed to men, and that through the Comforter.

Christ will return literally one day, both Old and New Testaments testify to that fact (Zechariah 14:3-4, Matthew 24:30). The one thing that usually confuses people is a failure to distinguish between the periods of Revelation. For example, Old Testament Saints were told Christ would come to redeem them, but their view was temporal, rather than eternal and spiritual. They would have been happy enough if Christ had simply overthrown Rome, restored Israel to her former glory, and then died, leaving heirs to rule in His stead. So we can, because we are in a time when revelation has progressed to the point where we can balance both Old and New, understand Prophecy in a context they could not.

I believe so.

Two, actually. First, the secular nation (as it exists now) will play a role in the Tribulation, then, those who are born again during the Tribulation, and live, will enter into the Millennial Kingdom and Israel will be restored to a former glory. At this time they will worship God in Spirit, because they will have the Spirit of God as God promised they would in the Old Testament (Ezekiel 36:27).

Personally I try to understand Revelation in the light of Prophecy throughout Scripture, taking into consideration that which has been revealed to us, which helps us to better understand Old Testament Prophecy.

For example, we can understand Daniel 12:7-12 much better than Daniel, because we have more information relating to that period. We can base a continuing temporal existence on earth for man based on passages like this, and others. It shows a Return of Christ yet a continued existence on earth, as contrasted with the finality Revelation 21 brings to this current physical universe.

Life: a sense of comfort.

Fellowship: depends on who you fellowship with, lol. Chances are if you fellowship with others who are intense in study there are going to be disagreements.

Politics: It should help, really, to know that what takes place on life's stage is temporal and all things will come to an end. For example, I have never had to fear global warming. I believe in global warming, but believe it will happen all at once according to Scripture. I don't have to get caught up in Political Religion, because I know there is but One King, and those who are in power here are there because of my King. I don't have to get caught up in racial tension, because all men in Christ, regardless of color, are my brothers and sisters.

One of the most disappointing things I have heard from and of some very well known preachers of yesteryear was "I/they were never really much on Prophecy." Prophecy makes up a large part of Scripture so...

...why not?

Every Prophet of God has had a concern for Prophecy, and I don't think we are going to have a balanced understanding of the Word of God if we fail to give attention to Prophecy.


God bless.

 

Ditto!

 

I don't think it can be. It must be interpreted in the clearer light of the NC which will inevitably mean a more figurative understanding much of the time. Romans 15:4 and 1 Peter 1:10-12 are crucial for a proper understanding od prophecy. But Scripture is nor a wax nose to be punched into any shape we like.

Not at this stage (Ephesians 2:11-20).

No.

I see no evidence that He did.

No room for it in Revelation 7:9.

I take it you mean the last book of the Bible. I see Rev. 4-22 as a series of visions each of which take in the time from the writing of the book through to the Return of Christ. The divisions are 4:1-8:1; 8:2-11:19; 12:1-14:20; 15:1-16:21; 17:1-19;21; 20:1-20:15 and a closing vision of heaven (21:1-22:20). The book that I haver found most helpful is William Hendricksen's More than Conquerors.

We should live our lives in the light of Christ's victory over Satan, the beasts and Babylon. We're going to win!! Indeed, we have already won (Romans 8:37)!! We should not fret too much over politics because God has it all in hand, and we should do our best to get on with our fellow-Christians because we're going to have to live together for a very long time.

 

Since all OT prophecies about the first coming of Christ were fulfilled literally, there is no exegetical or hermeneutic basis for interpreting other OT prophecy any other way. The obvious caveat is that we interpret figurative language figuratively: idioms, metaphors, hyperbole, etc. No linguist I know of would call prophecy "figures of speech." Prophecy is usually normal language. The exception is apocalyptic literature.

Israel clearly has a prophetic future according to Rom. 9-11. I'm not sure what you mean by a prophetic future for the church. Do you mean the local church, "universal church," or something else?

I choose not to answer the rest of your post, though I disagree with some of your basic assumptions. I feel your OP is much too wide for careful discussion.

 

This statement is without proof and is simply the view of Covenant Theology and New Covenant Theology, not being the view of other systems.

 

But there is here:


Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)


1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:


2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.


4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.


5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.


6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


That 7:9 describes all peoples being in Heaven doesn't preclude a National Identity for Israel. Israel is clearly the "Woman" through whom Christ (a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne) came. This corresponds to Christ's warning that when they see the Abomination of Desolation stand where it ought not to...flee.

And if we consult Daniel we see a period of time that follows after the 1260 days:



Daniel 12:7-12
King James Version (KJV)

7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Three and a half years is the time which is given. This corresponds to Israel being preserved in the Wilderness for three and a half years.

It is a yet future event (as it still was in Christ's Day):


8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.


Note that the time begins when "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up." This corresponds to the Abomination which stands in the Holy Place spoken of by Christ.

Again, this is when Israel is to flee.

Now note that there is actually more time than the three and a half years, the forty and two months, the times, time, and half a time...


11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


The last figure is 75 days longer than the usual three and a half year period that is given for the Tribulation period. We can also look at Ezekiel 39 to see correlation between God's destruction of His enemies there and that which takes place in Revelation 19-20.

The point is that there is a temporal existence that extends beyond the Tribulation Period.

And it is just my view that the 75 days are for the purpose of judgment of those who survive the Tribulation (and are not believers) and for the establishment of the Kingdom. Satan being cast into prison at Christ's return gives a time-frame for the "little while" he is released at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, at which time he gathers a last army of unbelievers to himself in a last desperate stand.


God bless.

 

I know you have me on ignore but I suspect you can't resist 'taking a peek'. From one of your previous posts:

"I don't follow Darby's ecclesiology in particular, but other of his teaching and methodology such as his brand of Zionism."
http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/darbys-translation-and-dispensationalism.100995/page-2#post-2250669

I'm curious, what brand of Zionism do you follow? Do you agree with Dr. Patterson?:

Dr. Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary :

"The present state of Israel is not the final form. The present state of Israel will be lost, eventually, and Israel will be run out of the land again, only to return when they accept the Messiah as Savior.”

 

JoJ, I think that if you consider this again you may come to a different view.
'.........The Church, of which I became a minister according to the stewardship rom God which was given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but has now been revealed to the saints. To them God willed to make known the what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory' (Colossians 1:24-27).
What the Spirit is saying to us here is that the word of God as it applied to Christ was a mystery under the OC. The Jews had Psalm 22, Isaiah 53 and a load of other texts but they didn't find Christ in them (John 5:39); they were a mystery to them. Now, with the coming of the Gospel and the NC texts, the mystery is revealed, and Paul's special responsibility is to take the Gospel to the Gentiles, just as Peter's is to take it to the Jews (Galatians 2:7).

 

Thanks for your interesting post, almost all of which I disagree with However, our subject is Preterism and having a discussion about Dispensationalism vs Amillennialism isn't going to address that. So, if you'll forgive me, I'll take a pass.

 

All Prophecy, despite whether it uses figurative language or not...is literal.

For example, Prophesy of Christ in Isaiah 53 is literal, though presents imagery of a sheep led to slaughter.

Nothing God reveals to Man as a future event or occurrence will fail to come to pass. Never has, never will. If that were the case, then I have to wonder how one would have faith in the Eternal State, for example. Or perhaps Christ preparing a place for us.

It's easy to take a statement someone makes and pick it apart, but don't forget that, as other people do not speak for you, neither do others speak for anyone else. While those involved in Systematic Theologies are sometimes forced to maintain loyalty, and defend, prominent spokesmen of their group, that does not mean that all Christians abide by any Systematic Theology currently (or in the past) popular, nor is it a good idea to assume that any statement should be assumed the position of anyone you might get a chance to speak with. This applies to anyone that claims to be a member of any group. Spoke with a fellow today that calls himself a Baptist yet he has embraced Soul Sleep and believes Christians go to Hades when they die.

As to the statement itself, it is not entirely erroneous. I think it can be said "Scripture should be interpreted literally," but, that doesn't mean we do not teach that we take figurative language for what it is. Christ is the Lamb of God, literally, but literally He is not a lamb. He is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, lol, but not literally a lion. Satan is the Ancient Serpent, and a Dragon, but not literally a serpent or dragon.

I would suggest to you that you consider that Prophecy often has more than one application (and I stress application, not meaning).

For example, Messiah was prophesied to come, and He did, yet we see two primary means of fulfillment (applications) to the Prophecy concerning Him. What is not revealed to the Old Testament Saint is that Messiah's Redemption went beyond the temporal. We cannot place too much blame on the people who did not receive Him because for one, they had only the Revelation they had received, and two, the Gospel of Christ is not revealed to men until the Comforter came. Not even the disciples of Christ were believing on Christ in accordance to His true Work (see Mark 16:9-14 for an example).

Another might be seen in the Prophecy of Daniel concerning the Abomination of Desolation: we can see a fulfillment in Antiches Epiphanes in the past yet according to Christ there is yet a fulfillment.

I think you may be getting the wrong impression from what you heard, as John clearly teaches the distinctions concerning Prophecy given to Israel and how that applies to the Church. The clearest example I could probably give would be found here:


Ezekiel 36:22-27
King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Verse 22 makes it clear this is a Prophecy for Israel. However, that does not preclude application to Gentiles, which we know is certainly the case, because this is in fact the clearest Old Testament prophecy of the Promise of New Birth. The fact that God is going to do this for Israel does not mean He wasn't going to do it for Gentiles.

Still, it is Prophecy that is specific to Israel which in my view will without question, one day...be fulfilled literally. When we look at all Prophecy, to deem certain of it to have been made obsolete would do irreparable damage to the harmony of all Prophecy, which is always fulfilled to the jot and tittle.

He is correct in that Prophecy which is specific to Israel, which we could not possibly correlate to Gentiles being brought into the New Covenant (such as being brought into our own land (that is specific to Israel)), should be viewed just so.

Each one would have to be looked at. Best to give examples for those participating in the thread.

The first part is true: Israel is not the Church, the Church is not Israel.

It is not the Church Paul is speaking about in Romans 9-11, he distinguishes Israel as a National Entity separate from the Church and in need of being saved.

The only thing I might disagree with is "...Prophecy addressing Israel is for Israel, not the church," but, only if he meant that in an absolute manner, and a casual reading of a few foot-notes in his study Bible would assure he doesn't. If you don't have one, you can, when in a Christian Bookstore, thumb through some relevant passages. I actually learned about Ezekiel 36 from his study Bible, lol.

Could you provide a quote from either John MacArthur or anyone that might be similar to his beliefs that justifies this statement?

I know of no-one that is sound in their teaching that affords a pass to the secular and godless nation Israel is today. While it is true that Israel is still His People, we witness in them today nothing much different than they were prior to the judgment imposed on them by God in the Old Testament. The current state of Israel is that of rejecting Christ, and we still await Prophecy to come true:


Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)


25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


If you read Hebrews you will see the Writer exhort his brethren by quoting the Promise of the New Covenant. He is essentially saying, "This is what was promised, and this is what is happening...embrace Christ and the New Covenant!"

The reason Paul can say "All Israel will be saved" is also a result of understanding Prophecy: When Israel is restored, only believing Jews will exist (all unbelievers are destroyed prior to the establishment of the Millennial Kingdom).


Continued...

 

Sorry to break this up.

The bottom line is that I would have to see a statement of John MacArthur saying something to this effect. Listened to him for a number of years and it is foreign to his teaching.

It's not really a matter of "sibling rivalry," lol, so to speak.

Israel is an Old Testament picture of the ultimate People of God that exist in the Eternal State. While they are not the Church, that does not change the fact that God created them a people, just as He is doing with the Church.

I don't really see Israel as the focus of Prophecy, just a focus, one part of an intricate yet harmonious revelation that spans a great deal of Biblical History.

Agreed, yet we still have to be able to maintain the distinctions Scripture presents between the differing groups (Jew, Gentile, Church). One of the factors that does not allow for this is a refusal to distinguish between the Ages, and the revelation provided within those Ages.

Here is a great text to give an example of that:


Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The red is given to indicate the Covenant of Law, the green, the New Covenant. In view is a willful sin, so what is it? Most teach that in view are Born Again Believers sinning willfully and losing their salvation. That is not the case. In view is a contrast of unbelievers under Law, and unbelievers under New Covenant conditions.

Now here is the point: you and I cannot commit this sin...because we were never under Law. We could have rejected, yes (and I think it a safe assumption to say we haven't, lol), but that is not what he is talking about. The entire Book is dedicated to the Writer exhorting Hebrews to basically forsake the Covenant of Law and embrace the New Covenant.

The second point would be that this was specific to...Hebrews. And despite the fact that it is (and that cannot be changed, it is written in stone, so to speak)...it still has application in this Age, even among Gentiles. The warning is not against Christians sinning, it is against people rejecting Christ, His Sacrifice, and the Ministry of the Comforter. That is contrasted with those who rejected "Moses Law," or, the "First Covenant, as the Writer often terms the Covenant of Law in this Epistle.


Continued...

 

The Church IS the Israel of God!

14 But far be it from me to glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Gal 6

 

I already spoke to this so will not do so again.

For our learning, yes, but that doesn't mean we negate its original intent or redirect the recipients of the Prophecy.

No-one is going to change the fact that this...


Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


...will for eternity refer to Israel.

Israel is the Woman described here, and despite the figurative language, which is seen in the Old Testament as well (Israel is also depicted there in the feminine, i.e., harlot, adulteress, wife), we can see a literal Prophecy which I personally see as something that will be fulfilled in the Tribulation, the last half specifically (I take a seven year Tribulation view, based on the Prophecy of Daniel 9).

Not entirely accurate. Read Acts 21:17-28 where Paul engages in an entirely Jewish ritual. Of course that doesn't mean Paul was not in error to do so, but, the point is that we have Jewish Elders of the Church...still being very Jewish. So much so that they were still engaging in rituals that required...animal sacrifice.

The thing to think about is that while Gentiles are not in need of following the Law, that does not mean Jews are required to shed their heritage. I do think Paul made a mistake by not saying, "Look fellas, you're just going to have to take my word for it, I am not going to offend Gentile sensibility by engaging in a ritual that involves sacrifice."

You would have to point out what is said in Genesis 12 about Isaac and Jacob, but in the meantime I would point out what is said about God's promise to Abraham:


Genesis 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Keep in mind that most of the Promises of God are fulfilled in the New Covenant. God did make of Abraham a great Nation, and without question we are all blessed through this. Yet Many in Israel, because, likely, of the limitations they were under (limited revelation, and without full understanding which we have because we have the Testament revelation), did not correlate God's promises from a Biblical perspective (meaning they did not balance it all), failed to recognize that God's intent was for the good of all mankind, not just their nation.

As I said before, Israel is an Old Testament picture of the Church. And I think that when we deal with the Lost as Israel dealt with Gentiles, we too are in danger of missing a very simple principle in Scripture: God means for man to have concern for each other.

So hopefully I have been able to present a few examples concerning Prophecy and application in regards to Israel and the Church.


God bless.

 

What?! I'm Shocked!

I am addressing the questions posed. The topic is primarily in regards to Prophecy and how we interpret it and apply it.

Its more Church/Israel than Dispensational/A-millennial.

Done.


God bless.

 

People of all species of eschatology believe we should live our lives in light of Christ's victory over Satan.
How does your species of eschatology affect your life, fellowship, politics, etc., in a way that is distinguished from other species?