Jesus died and in his physical death, he tasted and experienced th indivdual sins of all of the elect of God!
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Punishment in the Atonement
- Thread starter JonC
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The second viewpoint is taken directly from Isaih, and Peter commentary under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit regarding the suffering Servant of the Lord!
Jesus bore the blunt of the wrath of God towards all sins , so why would that not be on an indivdual basis? If not, then the corporate sense would seem to be bringing in he died for all sinners, and yet not all are saved?
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Nobody is arguing that God is "bound" by the Law. The arguement is that the Law reveals the righteousness of God Himself (Rom.3:21) and the proof is that the same MORAL term ("love") describes both equally.
It is not about being "bound" by the Law but about SATISFYING the Law's standard of righteousness and the laws condemnation against the sinner and his sins.
Tell me Jon, why would it take the Father seeing "travail" in order to be satisfied by the Son's sacrifice (Isa. 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. According to your view God does not need to "see...the travail" of Christ's soul in order for him to be "satisfied".
However, Christ was "made UNDER THE LAW' and "became obedient unto death" and Christ is God in the flesh and so God did indeed become "bound" to obedience of the law in order to redeem them "under the law."
another complete irrational and oxymoronic argument. First, we need to be "saved" as prior to that point in time we are "children of WRATH EVEN AS OTHERS." Second, what is born of God will not experience death as it is the body that experiences death (Jn. 11:27 And whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Believe you this?" (apparently you don't believe this).
The second death is separation of the whole man from God. I believe that the whole man of Christ was on the cross when he said "My God,My God why hast thou FORSAKEN ME"
What you don't seem to grasp is that resurrection is not "life" in the case of the lost as their bodies will be raised in death - and will continue in death forever along with the rest of their nature (spirit and soul).
This ties into being Forsaken of God also, as Jesus was the sin bearer, and the Father treated Him in same way any sinner would be, experiencing seperation from God while on the Cross tasting death for our sake, Jesus was NOT seperated as in ceased being God, but in His humanity felt as if he were!
I don't believe Jesus experienced sin, for God's eyes are too pure, too holy, to experience sin.
One does not need to experience sin to experience the punishment of sin.
This is typified by the sinless son of God being flogged and beaten for crimes He did not commit.
Though the floggings and beatings were real they also spoke of His receiving the punishment we deserved as well as the punishment of death and the atoning blood sacrifice upon the cross.
I know it is an affront to our sensibility that Christ died for ones very and actual sins but true nonetheless.
HankD
He who knew no sin became the sin bearer, so did not become a sinner, but experience all things as a sinner would while on the Cross!
I agree. It was Y1 who said Jesus experienced sin, not I.
And yes, Christ died as a propitiation for all sin. He is the Savior of all men. When I was lost, I could not atone for even one of my sins even if I wanted to.
Do you think that Jesus experienced a hatred for God?
Do You?
No, I don't. But I also don't think that Jesus "tasted and experienced the individual sins of all the elect of God". And I don't think that Jesus "experienced all things as a sinner while on the cross."
We hold different perspectives. I believe that Jesus remained sinless and experienced bearing our sins, our iniquities being laid on him - not only that, but the sin of mankind. All sin. Jesus did not have to taste sin in order to suffer the consequences of sin. He became man. And Jesus did not have to experience the cross as a sinner. He had to experience the cross as God's righteous one being offered as an atonement for the sins of the world. He experienced the cross as an innocent and righteous man, numbered among the transgressors.
Do you have a passage that states otherwise, that "Jesus tasted and experienced the sins of all the elect"? Can you show me where it is said that Jesus "experienced all things as a sinner while on the cross"?
We just disagree and see things differently.
Who believes that? I don't! I believe he was made sin legally positionally WITHOUT COMMITTING ANY SIN EXPERIENTIALLY. I believe he paid in full the complete sin debt for the individual's sins and that God looked upon the travail of his soul and was "satisfied" AT THE POINT OF LEGAL JUSTICE FOR ALL THE SINS PLURAL OF ALL THE ELECT.
. You don't believe he experienced precisely what he claimed to experience - "My God, My God why hast thou forsaken me"? That was not his experience? He was fibbing you think?
Give me a break, no one on this forum believes he experientially became a sinner! No one! You have been told this a half dozen times and yet you are still making this false inferrence!! He was made to be sin LEGALLY. He never sinned himself.
MORE FALSE ACCUSATIONS! You can't seem to grasp he was legally treated as a sinner and legally treated in the same manner for our sins BUT HE HIMSELF NEVER SINNED EXPERIENTIALLY.
MORE FALSE ACCUSATIONS. No one on this forum believes this make believe garbage you are inventing out of thin air! No one! He did have to "experience the cross" and he was "made to be sin for us" on the cross. POSITIONALLY, LEGALLY and he did experience the wrath of God on the cross - separation from the Father experientially FOR US IN OUR PLACE AS SINNERS without committing any sin - he personally remained sinnless through it all.
Absolutely true! Yet he was LEGALLY IMPUTED OUR SINS and SUFFERED FOR OUR SINS positionally and legally and his sufferings for sin were experiential and actual EVEN THOUGH HE PERSONALLY WAS WITHOUT SIN.
Why should I be challenged to produce a text for something I don't believe???? You are charging me with a falsehood that I believe "Jesus tasted and experienced THE SINS of the elect" when I believe no such thing! I believe that "Jesus tasted and experienced the CONDEMNATION of the sins of the elect. Take notice what you said and what I have said. They are not the same thing. You are charging us with claiming we believe Jesus experientially became a sinner on the cross while we wholly and totally deny such a thing. He did not have to experientially partake of sin in order to experientially partake of the CONDEMNATION against sinners for sin on the cross. Reread it until you get this difference straight in your own mind.
No! You are perverting our position, building a straw man position and then condemning a position we don't believe. First, understand what we are saying and then address it. Let me say this again, we do not believe Jesus "experienced sin" on the cross or personally experientiallly sinned or committed sin. WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT! Stop making this false charge! We believe Christ "experienced the wrath of God against sinners due to their sins while on the cross satisfying the LEGAL demands of God based upon God's own LEGAL standards.
Jesus experienced the brunt of the full wrath of God towards sin, so whatever that meant, he felt real separation from the Father, abandonment while on the Cross, but He always stayed sinless and God during that time!
Jesus stayed sinless and God while on the Cross, but was thje sin bearer, and bore the full blunt of wrath of God towards sin, and so he felt/experienced what sinners do when judged by God...
Sin is the violation of the law. Death is the legal condemnation of the same law. What must be legally satisfied is what was violated and that satisfaction must equal the condemnation or else sinners are still under that condemnation. What Jesus suffered was the condemnation of what was violated. The SINLESS was "made to be sin" IN THE LEGAL POSITION UNDER THE LEGAL CONDEMNATION of the law because that is WHERE SINNERS ARE LEGALLY FOUND.
He was "made under the law" for the purpose to redeem them who were "under the law." However, you want to cut out the Law completely from your make believe view of atonement. If you cut out the law, its condemnation, its satisfaction YOU HAVE NO ATONEMENT AT ALL because you have cut out the very thing that MUST be satisfied in order to FREE sinners from condemnation as the condemnation is inseparable from THE LAW.
Therefore, your view of the atonement is really a complete repudiation of the true Biblical atonement.
He was "made under the law" for the purpose to redeem them who were "under the law." However, you want to cut out the Law completely from your make believe view of atonement. If you cut out the law, its condemnation, its satisfaction YOU HAVE NO ATONEMENT AT ALL because you have cut out the very thing that MUST be satisfied in order to FREE sinners from condemnation as the condemnation is inseparable from THE LAW.
Therefore, your view of the atonement is really a complete repudiation of the true Biblical atonement.
Jesus death was propiation to God for something, and this is a legal requirement needed to be paid for/appeased, and that meant that Jesus needed to die and suffer for the wrath of God towards sins!
Enhance your calm (isn't that what they said on Demolition Man?). I never accused you of believing anything on that post. I was not quoting you, but what I posted was an exact and direct quote. Both of them! You don't believe it, whoopty doo, neither do I. If Y1 misspoke, then he can explain. But what I typed was quoting his post.
Yes, that's not a mystery, Scripture says for the sins of the world. We all agree here (I hope).
For the sins of the elect, if one holds to limited view, for sins of all if unlimited view!
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