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Featured John Bunyan on the Sovereign Choice of God

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by MennoSota, Mar 4, 2017.

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  1. saved and sure

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  2. saved and sure

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    So when God said "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life", He wasn't referring to everyone?

    So if I use these verses to witness to a non believer, I should let them know that these verses may not be meant for them. Should I tell them that this only applies to those God has chosen and it may not be them.

    Does not sound like good news to me.
     
  3. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Why would you? You have no idea whether your friend is chosen by God for adoption (See Romans 8 and Ephesians 1). That is for our Sovereign King to know. We have been given the task of being an ambassador for our King and calling all rebels to reconciliation with our King (2 Corinthians 5).

    You do not need to make whosoever universal. You are not going to save your friend. No matter how much you strategize and come up with a plan to save your friend, you will never save them. Only if God, by his grace, chooses to save your friend will your friend be saved. The great thing is that you can be assured that you cannot screw up your witness so badly that your friend can not be saved. You're just not that powerful.
    Pray that God might save your friend and continue to glorify God to your friend. It may be that God will use your life to draw your friend into the Kingdom.
     
  4. saved and sure

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  5. saved and sure

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    So using these verses will be misleading unless I explain whosoever doesn't mean whosoever. We must be honest in our message and if what you believe is true you must tell them that the verses do not mean what they say. With that said, there is little benefit in discussing this further.
     
  6. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    No, it's not misleading at all. Just tell your friend about Jesus and his act of reconciliation on the cross. If your friend is made alive in Christ...rejoice. If not...keep being God's ambassador. You never know what God may do.
    If your friend begins to read the Bible and asks about these verses in John, then teach him/her the context of the passage and let God do whatever God chooses to do.
    We ought not try to manipulate our friends into some conversion experience as though we were in a sales competition with other belief systems. That's not our role. Just be an ambassador for the Kingdom of God. Call people to reconciliation. Let God do what He's going to do.
     
  7. saved and sure

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    There is power in God's Word so it appears that you are suggesting that I do not use verses like John 3:15-17?

    And by the way, you as with most people who believe as you do, are adding and twisting what I have said. Nowhere did I say that I was trying to manipulate people into a conversion experience or saw it as a sales competition to win souls.

    All I want to continue to do is point people to scripture, (The Word of God). It appears that you do not feel that is adequate and the only time to use scripture is if we are asked by the lost person to do so.

    The church I left had a pastor who believed that outreach was not very important because he said that if God wants people to come to his church they will. He was a Calvinist.
     
    #27 saved and sure, Apr 11, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Where do I say that?

    I explained the whosoever found in verse 16 by sharing the context.
    This is what you asked me to do.
     
  9. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    1 john 5
    10Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
    The testimony is God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his son

    So do you believe God has given ME eternal life?

    If you say yes, great. If you say no or you don't know, then you make God a liar because you don't believe the testimony God has given about his son.


    But if you say well the test here doesn't involve another person's stance just my personal status then "God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son." applies to everyone.



    This is why a LIAR is a LIAR.

    Because if he rejects the notion that God has given him eternal life, and eternal life was never offered to him, then he would be telling the TRUTH.
     
  10. saved and sure

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    When Jesus was tempted by satan did He quote scripture or did He share the context?
     
  11. saved and sure

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  12. saved and sure

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    By the way, I have been given the task of sharing the Gospel. I am an ambassador because I am saved.
     
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Utilyan you sure do a poor job with understanding 1 John. You are, simply put, wrong in your interpretation.
     
  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Quoting a verse with correct meaning is not wrong, especially when God quotes God. Do you think you are equal with God when you quote a verse out of context? If so, you allow for Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, atheists and a myriad of others to quote freely and claim their interpretation is legitimate.
    I explained why the word whosoever is not universal in John 3. Context provides the key.
     
    #34 MennoSota, Apr 12, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2017
  15. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Great!
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You seem to be rather confused. The verse absolutely speaks to your friend and everybody else. If your friend will repent of his sins and trust in Christ for salvation, he will be saved, no question about it. "The one who comes to me [in repentance and faith] I will by no means cast out" (John 6:37).

    However, your friend is dead in trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1-3), and he will not repent and trust in Christ unless God opens his heart to do so (John 6:44; Romans 9:16). This is not because God is deliberately keeping him out of heaven, but because he has a wicked unbelieving heart, as we all had at one time (Titus 3:3-7).
     
  17. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    FYI, most of the great evangelists have been Calvinists, like Bunyan, Whitefield, Carey, Spurgeon etc. If your Pastor really said that he was a Hyper-Calvinist and wickedly ignorant of his duty.
     
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  18. saved and sure

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    John 6:44 makes it very clear that God must draw a person to Him and Jesus makes it very clear in John 12:32 who that is: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
     
  19. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Does that verse mean that Jesus will save all men? Is it a universal promise that all will be saved?
     
  20. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Where does "drawing" equate to "justification"?

    John 6:37?

    Is coming to Jesus the same as being drawn to Jesus? In TULIP, maybe, but what do the Scriptures say?
     
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