One Must Hold to the Physical bodily resurrection to be saved?

[Happy]

I don't dictate the terms, the Word of God dictates the terms, and the only way a person is a Christian is if they are born again.

So what do you call a person going to a Christian Church, Learning ABOUT God, Being ENLIGHTENED to the TRUTH of Gods Word, WHO has not yet SUBMITTED to God?

Again, you create a false dichotomy as many Charismatics do, first, there is the regular old joe Christian who is saved, then, we have Super Christian! Whereas Old Joe is merely saved, Super Christian has been "baptized with the Holy Ghost," he has been "zapped" with supernatural super-powers.

Again you show yourself as a man who clings to the carnal understanding, and pronounces false accusations against others who have moved on PASSED relying on philosophies of men and carnal understanding.

So no, I don'[t think people can name tag, unless it is a designation or description from the Bible.

So, you DO what you have not thought? Funny! "where is "false dichotomy" in the Bible?

One cannot "learn of Christ" in their natural state.

False. Men LEARN of CHRIST in their "natural state". Men in their "natural state" SUBMIT unto Christ.
The "KNOWLEDGE" is in Scripture. The "UNDERSTANDING" of the knowledge is what is given a man, AFTER he submits. And even then, that man needs to SEEK that understanding.

Christ doesn't save the saved! He saves the UNSAVED, who have LEARNED ABOUT HIM, while in the "natural state", and submit unto Him.

Col.2

1. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This is why the Old Testament Saints, including the disciples prior to Pentecost...did not understand Christ, either in Prophecy, or...when He told them directly the Gospel:

You seem to not know the difference between KNOWLEDGE and the UNDERSTANDING of KNOWLEDGE. They are NOT the same thing!

Even Satan has the KNOWLEDGE! And Satan, like any man who does not believe the KNOWLEDGE,
such man WILL NOT become privy to the UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE, which is ONLY given a man, BY GOD Himself.

John.3

1. [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Matt 15

[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Rom 1

[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Is it not your pleasure to congregate with others who are "without understanding" (according to God), and preach Carnal understanding ?

Its right there in the Bible, Happy.

I know what is written in the Bible - AND I know the KNOWLEDGE revealed in the words of the Bible, are NOT interpreted by a man's brain, but by God giving His Understanding to a man who seeks it.

It's right in the Bible ... HOW and BY WHOM a man receives Gods Understanding.

Exod.31
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
[3] And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge

Luke 24
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Understanding to WHAT? The Knowledge of the Scriptures !

They are not followers...unless they are born again, Happy, that is just a basic Bible Truth.

Nonsense. That is your basic carnal understanding.

The Disciples were FOLLOWERS, BEFORE they were "born again". They opened their ears and heard. They opened their eyes and SAW the Word of God performing miracles. AFTER, following and learning ABOUT Jesus, they opened their hearts and received the Spirit of God, Christ Jesus within them.

Matt.4
[19] And he saith unto them, Follow me,

How does one MAKE an election to submit to God....WITHOUT FIRST learning and gaining knowledge ABOUT HIM?

And WHAT do you call a man WHO is following Christ's teaching and learning about Him?

Scripture called them Disciples!

Matt.10

1. [1] And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

You should have learned - any man following after Christ's teaching, and learning His truths, is being enlightened and given power from God.....BEFORE he is saved and born again.

You should have learned - God wants a mans SUBMISSION/election to be SURE, BEFORE the man submits.
You should have learned - you don't SUBMIT your oath to something, YOU know nothing about!

You should have learned - a SUBMISSION unto to God is PERMANENT - you are giving Him POWER over your life for Him to KEEP you.

You should have learned - a SUBMISSION unto to God, which is false, is a man who has LIED to God, and can not be forgiven, thus not saved or born again.

2Pet.1
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:

You should have learned - the DISCIPLES, followed, learned, knew Jesus as a man, continued following, then knew Jesus as the Lord Christ, God with us, who came down from heaven to teach, by word, by example, and receive the faithful unto Him and forever be WITH such man.

John.14

1. [7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
2. [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

2Cor.5

1. [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

You want to keep the knowledge of Christ in the flesh as the ultimate, preaching Him a human of dust.
Scripture teaches to acknowledge God came to earth in the flesh, and revealed He is God whom He desires you to know Him as the Spirit He is..... not a created man.

He wasn't created, and certainly not created OF the earth, from the seed of a created woman!
He CAME to earth FROM heaven <--- knowledge revealed.
While ON EARTH the UNDERSTANDING is revealed ---> TO MEN WHO trust to believe the knowledge and seek the Understanding.

continued

 

[Happy]

continued

Actually I speak with Atheists all the time, and those who say "I was saved but no longer..." have one thing in common...they cannot, to the man...tell you how one is saved.

Uh huh - they can not trust to believe the knowledge, thus they can not receive the understanding, so they make up their own understanding, LIKE YOU do.

And they, like you, have no understanding of Salvation in Christ, which, though you call yourself a Baptist you sound more like a JW or Mormon.

LOL

So no, I don'[t think people can name tag,

So what exactly are you?

A servant of God. And not a hypocrite as you keep revealing applies to you.

Salvation is eternal, that is why Christ taught that He came to bestow Eternal Life.

Not news.

Those who claim to have been saved and then become apostate are either men never saved, or those saved who have fallen so far into sin that they have become spiritually numb. That can happen, which is why we are commanded to...

They are precisely men WHO
- made a confession to God before witnesses (ie alter call), but which was not truthful.
- or were following along, becoming enlightened, having faith and THEN (because of any list of numerous
reasons) decided to reject God, and stop having faith and stop following.

It has nothing whatsoever of "falling so far into sin"... All men are sinners, and there is ONLY ONE SIN, from which a man can NOT be saved (ie lying to God). All other men, regardless of their "falling so far into sin", WHO trust to believe, are worthy of saving, and are saved by God Himself, whether or not you think them worthy.

Restoration can be necessary

Nonsense! Restoration IS necessary!

because of one vital fact about salvation you refuse to understand in its proper context...the un-redeemed body, the fallen flesh.

Nonsense. All natural born men have corrupt flesh. FOR A faithful and submitted man ... the restoration BEGINS on the "INSIDE", making the "inside" pure and holy, (unseen to the world's eyes)

It is necessary for the man to remain a human bodily man, that the WORLD can and does see.
However God has already accounted that human body, SANCTIFIED, ie holy.
YOU as a carnal man, continue to see with your carnal eyes, your human body.

WHEN a man is raptured, He shall see with NEW eyes, BECAUSE, what you can not SEE with carnal eyes, will be changed. You will SEE your glorious body. You will SEE Jesus "as he is"..
Then MAYBE, you will stop calling Him a human from dust of the earth, and trust He is the Lord who NEVER changes!

Salvation cannot be lost

That depends on which understanding you are giving.

Jesus came to give HIS FLESH, for the life of the WORLD.
The WORLD is "every man born OF the world".
Jesus' prepared BODY, IS according to God, thee ONE body, sufficient to SAVE, "every" man born of the earth.

That is the first sign ~ Salvation for ALL men was prepared, AND given, through Jesus' BODY being given.

So all men have been given the gift of Salvation.

Now IF I give you a "gift card" for $100.00, that I paid for.... Do you have a $100.00 gift? Yes.
Is it yours? Yes. Did you pay for it? No. Does it benefit you? Maybe.

If you do not use it, does it benefit you? no
If you reject it, does it benefit you? no
If you lose it, does it benefit you? no

Was it still yours, even if you do not use it, reject it, or lose it? yes

It's the same with SALVATION - Jesus paid, Jesus gave, and it is given for all of mankind.

Men can not use it, can reject it, can lose it ~ "OR"

they can RECEIVE IT, ACCEPT IT, CLAIM IT, and forever KEEP it!

So, uh, ya, men can lose their salvation.

And no, men can NOT LOSE "their" salvation, ONCE they claim it for themselves.

But then when you speak not the full truth, and argue against others with half truths, it is pretty much irrelevant.

 

[Happy]

The seed of Abraham was/is Jesus,

Agree.

and only those have been now saved by Jesus

Saved now? Now as the present? What about OT Saints? Don't you believe they had the Word of God in them? Scripture says they did.

Did God have to manifest His Word in the likeness as a man, call Him Jesus, BEFORE God could put His Word into OT men?

Scripture doesn't say so.

are part of His Covenant promise!

What about God's promises to OT men? Aren't the gifts and blessings the same for OT men with the Word of God in them, and NT men with the Word of God in them, and today presently men with the Word of God in them?

Isn't that "indwelling", all the Same ONE Spirit of God, regardless of the era ?

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
I don't dictate the terms, the Word of God dictates the terms, and the only way a person is a Christian is if they are born again.

So what do you call a person going to a Christian Church, Learning ABOUT God, Being ENLIGHTENED to the TRUTH of Gods Word, WHO has not yet SUBMITTED to God?

I don't call them anything. Men and women can go to a church, sit in the pew for years, and never "submit," and sometimes...

...think they are saved because they go to a church.

You think one can be a Christian...and not submit to God? Man must come into obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Again, you create a false dichotomy as many Charismatics do, first, there is the regular old joe Christian who is saved, then, we have Super Christian! Whereas Old Joe is merely saved, Super Christian has been "baptized with the Holy Ghost," he has been "zapped" with supernatural super-powers.

Again you show yourself as a man who clings to the carnal understanding, and pronounces false accusations against others

Its not a false accusation, it is the doctrine of numerous Charismatic organizations, as well as the view held by many in the Protestant and Evangelical groups that like to think of themselves as "conservative."

As a matter of fact, I doubt I could count on one hand the number of people I have spoken to who do not view "The Baptism with the Holy Ghost" as "empowerment," rather than the actual immersion into God that takes place when we are saved.

who have moved on PASSED relying on philosophies of men and carnal understanding.

Again, that is not the case. It is philosophy, not Theology, that teaches error. People sit around and decide what Scripture teaches rather than taking from the Word of God what is given.

I just cannot call that Theology, because it is not the knowledge of God, nor is it knowledge from God.

And I notice you still refuse to address the points actually raised, which is why you give me yet another tirade that is irrelevant to the issues which you fail to grasp, or consider.

This is why you do not understand Regeneration.

So no, I don'[t think people can name tag, unless it is a designation or description from the Bible.

So, you DO what you have not thought? Funny! "where is "false dichotomy" in the Bible?

Where is Bible in the Bible?

I am not the one calling unregenerate men Christians, or trying to teach an ungodly philosophy such as there are two classes of Christians, those who are merely followers and learners, and...those born again.

Its not the Kingdom of God that those who are not born again are perceiving, Happy, that is simply what Christ taught:


John 3
King James Version (KJV)


3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Jesus Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

One cannot "learn of Christ" in their natural state.

False.

Again, you ignore what I said.

Natural men do not learn of Christ...except while under the convicting ministry of the Comforter.

You present this falsely as though I create a concrete principle it happens at no time.

You are being very deceitful, Happy, and that is necessary because you do not want to accept what you are being told.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, you ignore what I said.

Natural men do not learn of Christ...except while under the convicting ministry of the Comforter.

You present this falsely as though I create a concrete principle it happens at no time.

You are being very deceitful, Happy, and that is necessary because you do not want to accept what you are being told.

Sinners can learn the facts of Jesus, the historical accounts, but are deaf and blind to the spiritual meaning and purpose of Him until the Spirit open hearts and eyes to Him!

 

[Darrell C]

Men LEARN of CHRIST in their "natural state". Men in their "natural state" SUBMIT unto Christ.

And the focal point of the discussion is...

...submitting to Christ.

You create a false dichotomy of Christians that have and those who have not: those who have are born again, those who have not are not born again, and...

...there is no Christianity apart from being born again.

The "KNOWLEDGE" is in Scripture.

This is true, but, the knowledge (revelation) of the New Testament is not to be equated with the knowledge of the Old, in that Revelation was progressive. Paul reveals "mysteries" not previously revealed, for example.

So what we can see in Scripture is that while the Gospel was given in the Old Testament...the understanding was not. We know that...because that is what we are told, and that is what we see in the disciples of Christ.

And I have given you many passages that illustrate this, and you continue to ignore this basic truth.

The "UNDERSTANDING" of the knowledge is what is given a man,

This is true, and until understanding is given...natural men will not understand. They can recite the Gospel, but not understand it. It is not real to them.

AFTER he submits.

Incorrect: understanding is provided through enlightenment to the natural man, and he responds to that enlightenment, which is to either receive or reject Christ.

And even then, that man needs to SEEK that understanding.

Agreed. However, men do not "seek enlightenment in order for God to enlighten their minds to the Gospel, because God is Sovereign in Salvation.

We love Him because He first loved us.

God initiates salvation, not man. You present a scenario where men, of their own volition...seek after God. Truly they seek after gods, but not God.

That is not up for debate:


Romans 3:10-18
King James Version (KJV)

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.


Except God intervene, natural man will never stand a chance in Hades of seeking after God. They will seek after gods of their own making, gods created in their image and likeness, but not God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Christ doesn't save the saved! He saves the UNSAVED, who have LEARNED ABOUT HIM, while in the "natural state", and submit unto Him.

Correction: it is not a matter of "learning about Him," it is a matter of God showing them the truth, enlightening their minds.

Forty years sitting in a pew will not accomplish that.

Col.2

1. [13] And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Where do we see that natural men can "learn of Christ" within their own capacity here?

This is why the Old Testament Saints, including the disciples prior to Pentecost...did not understand Christ, either in Prophecy, or...when He told them directly the Gospel:

You seem to not know the difference between KNOWLEDGE and the UNDERSTANDING of KNOWLEDGE. They are NOT the same thing!

I do understand, that is just one principle I have been trying to explain to you.

The disciples had the knowledge, in that Messiah was prophesied throughout the Scripture they had available to them.

But we see after the Resurrection...


John 20:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


...they still not understand that knowledge.

That is the same principle that applies to a natural man trying to understand the spiritual things of God.

Again, it is not me you argue with, it is God you argue with.

Now just consider this truth as taught here by Paul (hence taught us by the Spirit of God):



1 Corinthians 2
King James Version (KJV)

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.


The wisdom (proper application of knowledge) was hidden. Had they understood it (the Gospel, this is the knowledge Paul speaks about) they would not have crucified the Lord. And as far as your rant about Satan having knowledge and understanding, this applies to him too: if he had known it (the Gospel)...he would have assigned the greatest security detail ever assembled in the history, past or present, of man.

Now watch the next quote (from the Old Testament):


9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.


Taught by most preachers that this is stating just how wonderful Heaven is going to be, which, while true...misses the entire context of Paul's teaching here.

What has not been revealed to man is...the Gospel. Read that in context where it is quoted:



Isaiah 64
King James Version (KJV)

4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him.

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

7 And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities.


We see the same principle concerning man we see in Romans 3 when Paul quotes the Prophets. Man is depraved.

The focus, though, is that it is the Gospel which is in view, that is what man has not seen, has not heard, nor has it entered into his mind.

Going on, we see how the Gospel is revealed to men:


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


And we see what natural man cannot do:


11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


And just to add one more statement from Paul, further illustrating that the Gospel was a mystery, hidden to Ages and generations past...


Romans 16:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Its not up for debate. It's just a basic principle, that the Gospel has been revealed to us, but was not revealed to the Old Testament Saint. Given in Prophecy, yes, but not the understanding of that Prophecy from an eternal perspective.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Even Satan has the KNOWLEDGE!

He may have gotten a clue at this point, but he was as ignorant of the Gospel as the Old Testament Saint.

Instead of preventing Christ's Sacrifice...he helped make it happen, by entering into Judas.

And if we acknowledge that Satan has an understanding, we simply support the principle that the natural man can understand the Gospel through the Ministry of the Comforter...and reject it.

And that is precisely what your false dichotomy fails to understand: those who refuse to submit to Christ, that is, come under obedience to the Gospel that they might be born again...

...are not Christians.


Continued...

 

[Yeshua1]

He may have gotten a clue at this point, but he was as ignorant of the Gospel as the Old Testament Saint.

Instead of preventing Christ's Sacrifice...he helped make it happen, by entering into Judas.

And if we acknowledge that Satan has an understanding, we simply support the principle that the natural man can understand the Gospel through the Ministry of the Comforter...and reject it.

And that is precisely what your false dichotomy fails to understand: those who refuse to submit to Christ, that is, come under obedience to the Gospel that they might be born again...

...are not Christians.


Continued...

Satan knows that Jesus is Lord, but he refuses to bow down to Him as that, but he will be forced to one day!

 

[Darrell C]

And Satan, like any man who does not believe the KNOWLEDGE,
such man WILL NOT become privy to the UNDERSTANDING of the KNOWLEDGE, which is ONLY given a man, BY GOD Himself.

Hence they are not Christians, as you propose.

John.3

1. [12] If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Matt 15

[16] And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

Rom 1

[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Is it not your pleasure to congregate with others who are "without understanding" (according to God), and preach Carnal understanding ?

As a matter of fact I am not a very popular fellow here, lol.

But in point of fact it is my pleasure to speak with anyone, whether they have understanding or not.

As far as preaching carnal understanding, if you relax your emotions a little, and try to actually consider what you are being told, you will see that the arguments presented are verified by the Word of God itself and cannot be disputed, which is why you are forced to simply seek to insult me.

But, bless you my child...I forgive you.

Its right there in the Bible, Happy.

I know what is written in the Bible -

Well, you are either intentionally disobedient to Scripture or you do not in fact "know what is in the Bible."

Or it could be you just don't understand, which is my guess. This is likely due to a few basic principles of Bible Study that you have not yet learned to employ.

AND I know the KNOWLEDGE revealed in the words of the Bible, are NOT interpreted by a man's brain, but by God giving His Understanding to a man who seeks it.

Sorry, but God does not disconnect the intellect He has given us when it comes to Bible Study.

This is why we have Systems of Theology that are so absurd, because they don't use common sense, but prefer rather to eisegete "spiritual meanings" into passages, rather than simply allow the Word of God to state what was given.

It right in the Bible ... HOW and BY WHOM a man receives Gods Understanding.

Exod.31
[1] And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
[2] See, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah:
[3] And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge

There is no question, all spiritual truth has always been revealed to man by God, and much of the time this has been done by God filling a servant and using him to convey that which God meant for man to know.

Now, what you need to incorporate into your understanding, Happy, is that Revelation has always been progressive. Adam did not have the Revelation Abraham had. Abraham did not have the Revelation David did. David did not have the Revelation the disciples had. And the disciples, in their natural state before receiving Reconciliation and the Eternal Spirit of God...did not have the Revelation they had when they were Baptized with the Holy Ghost, that is, the Comforter, Who revealed to them the mysteries not revealed to Ages past.

Learn that and you will be on your way to understanding the New Testament, particularly the Gospels, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Luke 24
[36] And as they thus spake, Jesus himself
[45] Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Understanding to WHAT? The Knowledge of the Scriptures !

No, Happy, understanding of Who Jesus was, lol.

You jump from v.36 to 45. Go back and read, and you will see that the disciples were still unbelieving that the Lord had, as He said, risen from the dead.

What He does here is opens their understanding to the Prophecy of Christ in the Old Testament. Think about that, why would He need to do that? Why didn't those disciples, who had been with Him for three years...not know that Jesus would rise from the dead? He told them several times. The Old Testament declares it.

The reason is because that Revelation was not to be fully revealed to men until the Spirit reveals it to them, Who Paul makes clear is the One Who reveals the Gospel.

They are not followers...unless they are born again, Happy, that is just a basic Bible Truth.

Nonsense. That is your basic carnal understanding.

No, its just basic Bible Principle.

Mormons and JWs "learn" about Christ all the time, but they are not followers of Christ, they are followers of religions.

The Disciples were FOLLOWERS, BEFORE they were "born again".

This is true.

And it because they are not born again that they all depart from Christ, Peter going so far as to deny he knows Christ:


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


The Lord is not impressed with their profession of belief, and the Scriptures do not support it either, but rather, make it clear...they did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ according to the standard of the New Covenant.

They did not believe He had died in their place, because here He had not yet died.

They did not believe, even after He died, and arose again...that He had risen again.

They opened their ears and heard. They opened their eyes and SAW the Word of God performing miracles. AFTER, following and learning ABOUT Jesus, they opened their hearts and received the Spirit of God, Christ Jesus within them.

And the points to consider are:

1. It had not happened in three years of walking with Christ while He ministered to Israel;

2. They did not receive the Spirit prior to Christ returning to Heaven;

3. Miracles did nothing to cause men to believe in an eternal sense;

4. Hard for men to believe on the Risen Lord prior to HIs death, burial, and Resurrection;


You impose conclusions that simply disagree with what Scripture shows and teaches.

Matt.4
[19] And he saith unto them, Follow me,

How does one MAKE an election to submit to God....WITHOUT FIRST learning and gaining knowledge ABOUT HIM?

As I said, God initiates all interaction, just as He did here.

But, the fact that the disciples followed Him has nothing to do with...being a Christian.

The disciples were not Christians until they believed on the risen Lord.

It is the Risen Savior that ministers in an eternal perspective concerning man's condition, however, Christ's earthly Ministry was specific in the capacity of the Messiah of Israel:


Matthew 10:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


The reason His Ministry is at this time specific to Israel is that it would not be until He died, was buried, and rose again...that men could believe on Him in His Role as Savior.

"Messiah/Christ" and "Savior" are not identical in meaning. And when we factor in the distinction between what is eternal and what is temporal we further understand the significance.

An example is seen in John 6 where the temporal is contrasted with the Eternal, that is, the temporal provision (manna) is contrasted with the Eternal Provision (the True Bread from Heaven). Whereas in the Old Testament we see temporal provision, in this Age we see Eternal Provision.


Continued...

 

[Yeshua1]

No, Happy, understanding of Who Jesus was, lol.

You jump from v.36 to 45. Go back and read, and you will see that the disciples were still unbelieving that the Lord had, as He said, risen from the dead.

What He does here is opens their understanding to the Prophecy of Christ in the Old Testament. Think about that, why would He need to do that? Why didn't those disciples, who had been with Him for three years...not know that Jesus would rise from the dead? He told them several times. The Old Testament declares it.

The reason is because that Revelation was not to be fully revealed to men until the Spirit reveals it to them, Who Paul makes clear is the One Who reveals the Gospel.




No, its just basic Bible Principle.

Mormons and JWs "learn" about Christ all the time, but they are not followers of Christ, they are followers of religions.




This is true.

And it because they are not born again that they all depart from Christ, Peter going so far as to deny he knows Christ:


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


The Lord is not impressed with their profession of belief, and the Scriptures do not support it either, but rather, make it clear...they did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ according to the standard of the New Covenant.

They did not believe He had died in their place, because here He had not yet died.

They did not believe, even after He died, and arose again...that He had risen again.




And the points to consider are:

1. It had not happened in three years of walking with Christ while He ministered to Israel;

2. They did not receive the Spirit prior to Christ returning to Heaven;

3. Miracles did nothing to cause men to believe in an eternal sense;

4. Hard for men to believe on the Risen Lord prior to HIs death, burial, and Resurrection;


You impose conclusions that simply disagree with what Scripture shows and teaches.




As I said, God initiates all interaction, just as He did here.

But, the fact that the disciples followed Him has nothing to do with...being a Christian.

The disciples were not Christians until they believed on the risen Lord.

It is the Risen Savior that ministers in an eternal perspective concerning man's condition, however, Christ's earthly Ministry was specific in the capacity of the Messiah of Israel:


Matthew 10:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


The reason His Ministry is at this time specific to Israel is that it would not be until He died, was buried, and rose again...that men could believe on Him in His Role as Savior.

"Messiah/Christ" and "Savior" are not identical in meaning. And when we factor in the distinction between what is eternal and what is temporal we further understand the significance.

An example is seen in John 6 where the temporal is contrasted with the Eternal, that is, the temporal provision (manna) is contrasted with the Eternal Provision (the True Bread from Heaven). Whereas in the Old Testament we see temporal provision, in this Age we see Eternal Provision.


Continued...

The Apostles themselves heard Jesus for 3 years predict his own death and resurrection, and since they were not yet filled with the Holy Spirit, they basically stayed hard hearing on that issue!

 

[Darrell C]

And WHAT do you call a man WHO is following Christ's teaching and learning about Him?

Well, first we consider if one can "follow" Christ in their natural capacity and ability (and Scripture makes it clear that is not possible), then we consider the conclusions that "follower" comes to.

That is usually a good way to discern between what is genuine and what is false.

And I might remind you at this point that Christ warned of Tares (unbelievers), who are indiscernible from the Wheat (believers).

We are very much commanded to be "fruit inspectors," not that we might lord it over someone, but that we might preserve the purity of the Body of Christ, even as the Old Testament example is given in the strict procedure demanded in order to keep Israel pure, the Old Testament picture of the Church.

Scripture called them Disciples!

Matt.10

1. [1] And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

God gave many men power throughout history...

...that has no bearing on when men began to be born again.

You should have learned - any man following after Christ's teaching, and learning His truths, is being enlightened and given power from God.....BEFORE he is saved and born again.

We cannot be dogmatic that it is from God.

We can't even be dogmatic that it is the Biblical Christ men are learning about.

Mormons and JWs do not learn about the Christ of Scripture, they learn of the christ created by Russell and Smith.

You should have learned - God wants a mans SUBMISSION/election to be SURE, BEFORE the man submits.

On the contrary...Sovereign God demands the obedience of all men.

That too...is not open to debate.

You should have learned - you don't SUBMIT your oath to something, YOU know nothing about!

Do show me where I am wrong. Provide the counterpoint from Scripture that renders my Doctrine in error.

That's all you have to do, and that is precisely what I have requested you do from the beginnings of our discussions, Happy.

You should have learned - a SUBMISSION unto to God is PERMANENT

Where in the world did you ever get that idea?

Oh that's right...your Liberal Philosophy.



Happy, if submission to the will of God were possible, even for a born again believer...do you think it would ever be necessary to restore a brother or sister? Do you think we would be warned of making shipwreck of our faith?

- you are giving Him POWER over your life for Him to KEEP you.

You don't give Sovereign God power over your life, your life is already owned by Him.

He "keeps" you despite the fact that you are going to sin, you are going to fail, you are going to, at times...be unfaithful.

He did not save you because you met a standard required for Him to save you, He saved you because you needed saving and had no power at all to save yourself.

That is why Christ came.

You should have learned - a SUBMISSION unto to God, which is false, is a man who has LIED to God, and can not be forgiven, thus not saved or born again.

Even the man that lies to God and man about his spiritual condition, whether this is intentional or not...can be forgiven.

The only thing that cannot be forgiven is the rejection of the ministry of the Holy Ghost, because that is in fact the means of being saved, and if one dies in a state of rejection,...they have no hope, because they have rejected the only thing that can save them.


Matthew 12:32
King James Version (KJV)

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


The only thing we have to fear...is the lack of fear of God.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The Apostles themselves heard Jesus for 3 years predict his own death and resurrection, and since they were not yet filled with the Holy Spirit, they basically stayed hard hearing on that issue!

I think we need to recognize first and foremost that the disciples were understanding of the revelation that was being given to them at that time, so we don't create a principle that they had nothing revealed to them that was not previously revealed. But, we cannot go beyond the bounds of the revelation we have received which makes it a certainty that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not at that time being revealed to them.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I think we need to recognize first and foremost that the disciples were understanding of the revelation that was being given to them at that time, so we don't create a principle that they had nothing revealed to them that was not previously revealed. But, we cannot go beyond the bounds of the revelation we have received which makes it a certainty that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not at that time being revealed to them.


God bless.

That had to wait unti lHis death and resurrection, as the Holy Spirit same with that revelation to all of the Apostles, and especially to Paul!

 

[Darrell C]

2Pet.1
[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure:

You should have learned - the DISCIPLES, followed, learned, knew Jesus as a man, continued following,

And not one of them were around when Christ was taken. They were, as Christ said they would be...scattered.

You can't pick and choose what you want to believe, Happy, you must learn to balance everything Scripture teaches.

You say they "continued to follow," and that is incorrect. They abandoned Christ, Peter going so far to vehemently deny he even knew Christ (with cursings), and the reason is because their understanding was carnal.

They expected, as prophesied, that Christ would cast out Rome and establish the everlasting Throne as Prophecy predicted. When their hopes of that seemed dashed...they scattered.

After Pentecost, when the Spirit revealed the Gospel to them, they would understand that the Everlasting Throne prophesied did not mean that a descendant of David would retake the Throne, and forever after have an heir on it, but that Christ did indeed establish an Everlasting Kingdom and that He Personally would sit on that Throne forever more.

then knew Jesus as the Lord Christ, God with us, who came down from heaven to teach, by word, by example, and receive the faithful unto Him and forever be WITH such man.

Again, this is Liberal philosophy.

There is not the false dichotomy in which we have Christians who are merely saved who have not "made Christ Lord in their lives."

That is the very issue and error Lordship Salvation addresses.

Christ is Lord whether men acknowledge that or not, and that pertains to all who turn to Christ in faith.

John.14

1. [7] If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
2. [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye
3. know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Relevance? Other than the fact that I have several times presented it?

2Cor.5

1. [16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

You want to keep the knowledge of Christ in the flesh as the ultimate, preaching Him a human of dust.

?

We are not discussing the fact that Christ is God manifest in the flesh, we are discussing the fact that the false dichotomy you present is bogus.

Scripture teaches to acknowledge God came to earth in the flesh, and revealed He is God whom He desires you to know Him as the Spirit He is..... not a created man.

Relevance to anything I have said?

He wasn't created, and certainly not created OF the earth, from the seed of a created woman!

And the fact is...women have no "seed," lol.

"Seed" refers to offspring. Christ is presented as having both men and women He is descended from. He is called the "Son of David.

Relevance to anything I have said?

Or are we now straying into Feminazi territory?

He CAME to earth FROM heaven <--- knowledge revealed.
While ON EARTH the UNDERSTANDING is revealed ---> TO MEN WHO trust to believe the knowledge and seek the Understanding.

Sorry, but while knowledge was indeed revealed while He was on earth, it is not until the Spirit sent from the Father comes that the Gospel itself is fully revealed to men.

This is why the disciples become Apostles.

This is why they return to their previous lives when Christ dies, then huddle in a locked room, then, when the Comforter comes...

...go out and preach the Gospel and turn the world on its ear.

Just give some consideration to these issues, Happy, and if you do, you will see...they are not up for debate, but simply Bible Principle that cannot be disputed.


God bless.

 

[Happy]

I don't call them anything. Men and women can go to a church, sit in the pew for years, and never "submit," and sometimes...

Then that should be notice to you - what YOU call OTHER men is irrelevant!
Because a man following after Christ's teaching, and having faith, absolutely can and do call themselves Christians.

...think they are saved because they go to a church.

How do you know what they think? I would lean more to they "THINK" about what they are "LEARNING".
And what Christian Church do YOU THINK is teaching men that "going to Church means they ARE saved"?

You think one can be a Christian...and not submit to God?

I have been VERY CLEAR on what I believe.
Open your ears -

ANY MAN following the teaching of Christ and in faith, can absolutely and rightfully call themselves a Christian.

ANY MAN who has learned ABOUT GOD, decided to TRUST what they learned, decided to make an oath of allegiance of faithfulness to God only, AND submits their life unto God, absolutely and rightfully and PRECISELY can call themselves a BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN!

Man must come into obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

And? What do you think a man (not YET submitted) is doing; WHO is following that teaching, believing it, and in faith doing?

Its not a false accusation, it is the doctrine of numerous Charismatic organizations, as well as the view held by many in the Protestant and Evangelical groups that like to think of themselves as "conservative."

More irrelevant "name tags" - charismatic, organizations, protestants, evangelical, groups, conservatives

Just more "deflection" as a means to make your false accusations appear to have merit.

I have provided what I believe.
I have provided Scriptures for my basis of belief.
I seek Gods Understanding and Trust His teaching, wisdom and understanding.
I can speak what He teaches me,
However I can NOT understand it FOR YOU.

You want to keep yapping on and on with accusations and name tags and your Lord is a human from a created woman's egg and God gives life from His Spirit to incomplete formed fetus' and carnal understanding is sufficient and on and on and on.....so be it.

1Cor.14

1. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

I already walked in your shoes a LONG time ago.
Then I figured out; Attempting to SERVE God with philosophies of men, and a carnal mind, is a FAIL!

As a matter of fact, I doubt I could count on one hand the number of people I have spoken to who do not view "The Baptism with the Holy Ghost" as "empowerment," rather than the actual immersion into God that takes place when we are saved.

No clue what that is suppose to mean or it's relevance. "who do not view....rather than the actual".

Jumbled thoughts.

Again, that is not the case. It is philosophy, not Theology, that teaches error. People sit around and decide what Scripture teaches rather than taking from the Word of God what is given.

What do you think philosophy is? Precisely using their carnal thoughts to decide what Scripture means.

Again; the Word of God written and spoken IS KNOWLEDGE!
Again; KNOWLEDGE is not UNDERSTANDING!

I just cannot call that Theology, because it is not the knowledge of God, nor is it knowledge from God.

And I notice you still refuse to address the points actually raised, which is why you give me yet another tirade that is irrelevant to the issues which you fail to grasp, or consider.

This is why you do not understand Regeneration.

You can babble on and on and on making accusations over and over and over. Moot to me.

I have had DEAF student Children grasp what escapes you.
Their Lord is not the created or from the seed of the created!
Their Lord is Faithful and has made them "WHOLE".
Their Lord is Faithful and they experience the results of the Lords works IN THEM!
Their Lord is Faithful and one day they SHALL SEE the their new body, God has prepared for them!

Where is Bible in the Bible?

On the Cover, and first page.

I am not the one calling unregenerate men Christians, or trying to teach an ungodly philosophy such as there are two classes of Christians, those who are merely followers and learners, and...those born again.

I noticed. Uh huh, I noticed you apply the term Christian to yourself, and elevated that term to MEAN what you have decided.

Do you also go visit all the Sunday school classes, with 5 ~ 10 yr olds (who are hearing and learning ABOUT Jesus) and poke your head in to teach them to NOT CALL THEMSELVES Christians?

Do you? Do you practice in your own Church what you preach.....correcting little children in such manner?

You're not arguing with me, you're arguing with Jesus Christ.

No, I am not arguing with you. I am disagreeing with you BECAUSE I trust Christ Jesus' understanding OVER yours.

 

[Darrell C]

Uh huh - they can not trust to believe the knowledge, thus they can not receive the understanding, so they make up their own understanding, LIKE YOU do.

Show where my understanding differs from the Scripture posted.

That's all you have to do, Happy.

LOL

Makes my day when I can make someone laugh.

A servant of God. And not a hypocrite as you keep revealing applies to you.

So show the hypocrisy.

That's all you have to do, Happy.

Not news.

For some it is.

They are precisely men WHO
- made a confession to God before witnesses (ie alter call), but which was not truthful.
- or were following along, becoming enlightened, having faith and THEN (because of any list of numerous
reasons) decided to reject God, and stop having faith and stop following.

What ineffable twaddle!



The point we focus on is whether the profession is genuine or not.

John speaks about false professors:


1 John 2:19
King James Version (KJV)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


Just because someone says "I am a Christian," or "I was a Christian," doesn't make them a Christian in reality.

And continuance is perhaps one of the better evidences of genuine salvation.

It has nothing whatsoever of "falling so far into sin"... All men are sinners, and there is ONLY ONE SIN, from which a man can NOT be saved (ie lying to God). All other men, regardless of their "falling so far into sin", WHO trust to believe, are worthy of saving, and are saved by God Himself, whether or not you think them worthy.

That all men are sinners does not negate the fact that among men there are those sinners who have been reconciled to God and those sinners who have not.

Or in other words, Christians, and non-Christians. Those are the only two types of men in the world, Happy.

Nonsense! Restoration IS necessary!

I agree, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen.

Nonsense. All natural born men have corrupt flesh. FOR A faithful and submitted man ... the restoration BEGINS on the "INSIDE", making the "inside" pure and holy, (unseen to the world's eyes)

This is true, but that does not negate my point: even though we are born again believers (resurrected spiritually, given life we had not before regeneration) we still reside in flesh that awaits to be redeemed.

It is necessary for the man to remain a human bodily man, that the WORLD can and does see.
However God has already accounted that human body, SANCTIFIED, ie holy.
YOU as a carnal man, continue to see with your carnal eyes, your human body.

Show me where the body of the believer is sanctified.

WHEN a man is raptured, He shall see with NEW eyes, BECAUSE, what you can not SEE with carnal eyes, will be changed. You will SEE your glorious body. You will SEE Jesus "as he is"..

Yes, they will be new eyes, lol, because at the Rapture the Church is, whether alive or dead, redeemed bodily, physically, and receives a body like unto that the Lord is in today, suited for eternal existence.

Then MAYBE, you will stop calling Him a human from dust of the earth, and trust He is the Lord who NEVER changes!

Could you point out where I have ever said anything like this?

I'll be waiting...


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Salvation cannot be lost

That depends on which understanding you are giving.

No, it does not.

The heresy you go on to propose in the following might sound good, but the fact is that one is either saved or they are not.

Jesus came to give HIS FLESH, for the life of the WORLD.
The WORLD is "every man born OF the world".
Jesus' prepared BODY, IS according to God, thee ONE body, sufficient to SAVE, "every" man born of the earth.

Christ established the Provision for Salvation for the world, that does not equate to "Christ saved the world."

That is what you are doing.

That is the first sign ~ Salvation for ALL men was prepared, AND given, through Jesus' BODY being given.

Sorry, but we have to distinguish the word "given" as it applies to the realities of the truth of Scripture. Christ was "given" to the world, that does not nullify the fact that many, most according to the teachings of Christ...will reject the Gift that has been given.

So all men have been given the gift of Salvation.

Correct, but you blur the lines and create a false gospel.

Now IF I give you a "gift card" for $100.00, that I paid for.... Do you have a $100.00 gift? Yes.
Is it yours? Yes. Did you pay for it? No. Does it benefit you? Maybe.

If you do not use it, does it benefit you? no
If you reject it, does it benefit you? no
If you lose it, does it benefit you? no

Was it still yours, even if you do not use it, reject it, or lose it? yes

It's the same with SALVATION - Jesus paid, Jesus gave, and it is given for all of mankind.

And I would agree with that, but, it is when we consider everything you say that we see you overstep the bounds of truth.

Men can not use it, can reject it, can lose it ~ "OR"

You cannot be considered saved just because the provision for salvation is available.

That is the issue you need to clear up.

they can RECEIVE IT, ACCEPT IT, CLAIM IT, and forever KEEP it!

We do not "keep" our salvation, anymore than we "keep" our humanity.

So, uh, ya, men can lose their salvation.

No, Happy, rejecting Christ (and I believe God gives all men opportunity to be saved, in that He reveals the truth to all men (and I use "men" in the general sense referring to mankind)) is not "losing salvation."

That is where you completely confuse the truths of Scripture.

Again, this is Liberal Philosophy.

And no, men can NOT LOSE "their" salvation, ONCE they claim it for themselves.

Men do not "claim Salvation," any more than a drowning man pulled out of the water "claims his rescue."

But then when you speak not the full truth, and argue against others with half truths, it is pretty much irrelevant.

I agree.


God bless.