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Featured Rationalism & Antinomy

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, May 2, 2017.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    "Rationalism insists that two seemingly contradictory principles in any position must either be reasonably reconcilable or the position is false. Antinomy allows for some things which cannot be reconciled in this life (by human minds) but will be reconciled in the next (by God). Rationalism assumes that the way in which God’s agency and man’s agency interact can indeed be comprehended by reason, and rejects Antinomy as a non-argument. It is this Rationalism that drives the unending debate between Calvinism and “the opposing party.” Both have used reason to arrive at opposite conclusions.

    Resulting from this Rationalism, the enduring divisiveness of the Calvinism debate among Southern Baptists can never be solved by reasonable arguments, agreements to peaceably disagree, or by enforcing equal distribution of proponents among our leadership. Rather than embracing Rationalism further, we need to expose its assumptions. Reasoning from the Scripture is not wrong in and of itself; but there is a danger in relying too heavily on it, and building a “top-heavy” edifice of reason on a foundation that does not actually justify all that is reasoned from it."

    (from an article by Ken Hamrick, It’s Not Calvinism But Rationalism That Divides Us )
     
    #1 JonC, May 2, 2017
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  2. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    And I agree Jon but take this scripture from Isaiah that is familiar to all but the process how this comes about to the Arminian brethren means one thing(the Lord and the sinner work in tandem) and to the Calvinist brethren and those of their camp means another(the Lord works alone)... As long as I have been on here that is the question and how can you reason together if you disagree?... We agree at the end results just reasonably disagree how the process of the end results occur... What is the bone of contention?... It can only be one thing...Total Depravity!... Those are my thought for what they are worth... Brother Glen:)

    Isaiah 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
     
    #2 tyndale1946, May 2, 2017
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  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    My bone of contention is not Total Depravity. It is a poor understanding of Election.
     
    #3 Revmitchell, May 2, 2017
  4. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Well that's your bone of contention then again could be both!... Brother Glen:)
     
    #4 tyndale1946, May 2, 2017
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Hey Brother.

    I'm sure your thoughts are worth a more than mine. Yesterday was my son's birthday and we bought him a skateboard. This morning I tired to skateboard and did well until I hit a hole. The board stopped. I didn't. My logical conclusion is that a 48 year old man should have known he had no business on a skateboard before planting his dominant foot on the front of the board.

    But here are my thoughts anyway:

    I disagree with my Arminian brethren (those I know personally) because they seem to ignore or minimize divine sovereignty in salvation. They affirm God’s work, but the idea that there are people predestined to salvation and others not is something they find very objectionable. I think if I understood unconditional election as they understand unconditional election that I may also object.

    My disagreement with my Calvinist brethren is a little different. I agree with them about unconditional election, but disagree with what I see as an anthropomorphic approach to the divine will. I am a compatibilist (I believe man freely chooses and God remains sovereign over all that comes to pass) and several of my Calvinistic friends find this contrary to logic.

    Insofar as Total Depravity, I do not see Arminianism denying that in their Articles. In fact, Article 3 and 4 seem to insist that natural man cannot seek that which is good. So I do not see this as foreign ground when it comes to Arminianism.
     
    #5 JonC, May 2, 2017
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  6. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I disagree your thoughts are just as important as mine... Now about the skateboard and these are words of wisdom from a 71 year old... 48 years old and a skateboard don't go together as you found out unless your Tony Hawk... The Hawk would have avoided that hole and since you didn't mention your son I sure he avoided that hole also... Now on the subject at hand I will have to ponder it awhile and get back to you later... I would like to hear what everyone else has to say and how many responses you have and go from there... Then I'll pipe in... Until then... "STAY OFF THE SKATEBORD"... You don't want Saint Peter eyeballing you and saying... And your story is?... Brother Glen:Whistling
     
    #6 tyndale1946, May 2, 2017
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  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Regarding the article, I believe the author correct (although I have never thought of it this way) that "it is a mistake to define Calvinism and the opposing view by which of the two principles they affirm, since there has long existed a vast but quieter middle group that affirms both. Rather, what defines the two opposite views is which principle they deny, rather than which one they affirm."
     
    #7 JonC, May 2, 2017
  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Ah yes...the middle group...or as I like to imagine...the jellyfish who can't find a solid spot in the waves.
    I often refer to this group as the semi-pelagian group.
     
    #8 MennoSota, May 2, 2017
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, not the semi-pelagin group (they look to human will) but the group that is not man-centered (that doesn't insist on the primacy of human reasoning and leaning on one's understanding).

    But the charge illustrates the error nicely.
     
    #9 JonC, May 2, 2017
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    We need to do away with all the labels and stick to the two that are accurate: Monergism and Synergism.

    Monergism: Salvation is all of God none of man.

    Synergism: Man cooperates with God in his own salvation.
     
    #10 TCassidy, May 2, 2017
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  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In terms of salvation, I think this would be helpful. How it plays out in individual doctrines may be a different story (I think we'd see things like faith and belief being termed a "work", man's responsibility to believe (and responsibility in belief) nullified, etc.). But at least we wouldn't be playing the "camp" game. :Cautious or would it just turn out to be another label....same thing under a different name?

    Anyway, I both enjoyed the article and found it interesting. Thought I'd share it and see what followed.
     
    #11 JonC, May 2, 2017
  12. Ken Hamrick

    Ken Hamrick Member

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    We need to do away with the rationalistic insistence that the two are mutually exclusive. God decides whom He will save, but He saves no one without winning their cooperation. Election is unconditional in eternity past; but salvation in this temporal world is conditioned on belief. The Bible affirms both.
     
    #12 Ken Hamrick, May 3, 2017
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  13. Ken Hamrick

    Ken Hamrick Member

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    I'm sorry for the repeated postings... pc seems unresponsive
     
    #13 Ken Hamrick, May 3, 2017
  14. Ken Hamrick

    Ken Hamrick Member

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    I'm sorry for the repeated postings... pc seems unresponsive
    Thanks. Same game, different names.
     
    #14 Ken Hamrick, May 3, 2017
  15. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    Jon I believe this a first for me on the BB, you post an article you read and then the author shows up... I find that somewhat Interesting... Brother Glen:Wink
     
    #15 tyndale1946, May 3, 2017
  16. Ken Hamrick

    Ken Hamrick Member

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    He posted a link to a blog. Wordpress notes the referring link. I followed it back here. Is that OK?
     
    #16 Ken Hamrick, May 3, 2017
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  17. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    No that is fine with me as everyone is welcome here... I was just ribbing Jon in a playful way... I welcome as I am sure others welcome your input, that's what we are here for... Your post showed me how you got here... I would like to be one of the first ones to welcome you here Ken Hamrick... Brother Glen:)

    Btw if you have not done so yet go into Baptist Board Forums New Membership Introduction and introduce yourself and let everyone know who you are.
     
    #17 tyndale1946, May 3, 2017
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  18. Ken Hamrick

    Ken Hamrick Member

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    Thank you, Brother Glen! I had forgotten, but I now find that I posted a couple messages here in 2004 under "KenHamrick" (no space). Anyway, a good conversation is hard to find these days, so I mostly stick to writing. Anything that's well thought out requires writing and reading, but it seems to me that discussion forums are being overrun by sloganeers who scoff at anything longer than a paragraph. I don't know what your place here is like yet, but someone was willing to read an article...
     
    #18 Ken Hamrick, May 3, 2017
  19. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I apologize if I have offended you... That was not my intent and if I came across to harsh please forgive me... If you need help navigating the BB just ask Jon or any moderator or administrator... I would help but it is midnight and I'm going to bed... You'll like this place and welcome my brother in the Lord... Brother Glen:)
     
    #19 tyndale1946, May 3, 2017
  20. Ken Hamrick

    Ken Hamrick Member

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    No, you didn't offend me at all. I was speaking of others in another "Arminianism v Calvinism" forum. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks again for the welcome!
     
    #20 Ken Hamrick, May 3, 2017
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