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Featured A challenge to both Calvinist and Non-Calvinist

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by utilyan, Jul 6, 2017.

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  1. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    A or B

    Now...glad to see you're a Calvinist, utilyan.

    How, do I know? By your answer.

    It must be terrible for you to hate your self for believing what you despise.
     
    #21 MennoSota, Jul 9, 2017
  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Actual bible believing Christians can tell you what verses in the bible in mere seconds.

    They can look it up, see the words match exactly, and say ok these verses are TRUE the other is FALSE.

    Calvinist don't like this game.

    I believe there is good in all, I believe there is Good in Menno. I pray that Menno will have the courage and FAITH IN GOD to tell us which verses are actual BIBLE VERSES, and which are absolutely NOT bible verses.


    Because I can sense right now He is AFRAID of the word of God, Afraid he is already offending God.

    My God is not a tyrant or monster. That is a simple mistake to forgive.

    Tell us the TRUTH.


    Which is bible scripture A or B? Which is absolutely not in the bible?


    Heres the list again:

    Tell me which of these verses is in the bible and which one is heresy.


    A OR B?


    A
    Romans 10:10
    10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    B
    Romans 10:10
    10for with the heart a person believes after being made righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, after salvation.


    A
    1 Corinthians 1:21

    21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

    B
    1 Corinthians 1:21

    21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to cause belief in those he saved.

    A
    Ephesians 1

    13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


    B
    Ephesians 1

    13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, ye believed,


    A
    Romans 5
    2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

    B
    Romans 5
    2By whom also we have access by grace into this faith wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
     
    #22 utilyan, Jul 9, 2017
  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I don't want anyone to stop being Calvinist, but I really want you to believe what you say you believe.

    Now I sat down for few hours to the matter these verses challenge, namely does regeneration precede faith.

    After some prayer and contemplation I found a good loophole one I don't think anyone could disagree with but not having this understanding is not a good excuse for being reluctant to stand by what scripture actually says.

    This a matter of putting your faith in God, we ought to believe the word of God and stand by it.

    Call it tough love, or iron sharpening iron. I believe you are a great person and God put you in my life to help me.

    It would be my sincere joy to leave you smiling and believing in Calvinism, I still think I can pull that off. Sides I love the underdog.

    But first more importantly, Please tell us which is actually scripture and what is not. A OR B? I'm doing this because I love you and you do not have to fear scripture.
     
    #23 utilyan, Jul 9, 2017
  4. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    You are aware, of course, of the contradiction that the Roman Catholic Church has to put up with on this issue, aren't you? The greatest doctors of the church affirmed predestination and limited atonement. Read Augustine. Read Aquinas. The church has not contradicted them, even though the Council of Trent and the catechism deny their teaching while pretending not to.
     
    #24 rsr, Jul 9, 2017
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Obviously As are true throughout, although the KJV gets the tenses wrong on a few occasions. Do you really think we never saw those texts before? Do you really think they contradict the Doctrines of Grace? :Roflmao
     
    #25 Martin Marprelate, Jul 9, 2017
  6. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    We believe in predestination just differ take on then Calvinist. I believe Christ's atonement to be a complete one with no brim to the merit. Limited seems to imply that the debt was only partially paid

    Its like you owe 1$ and your theology says well God mugs Jesus for that 1$, hence you are paid for.

    We're saying you owe 1$ and Jesus shows up with billions of dollars for God, There is no mugging necessary, You are in Christ. God is so impressed, here is a concept, God actually FORGIVES YOU, you don't owe anything.

    If God had to mug Jesus for that buck that's not forgiving you, that's you paying.
     
    #26 utilyan, Jul 9, 2017
  7. Calv1

    Calv1 Active Member

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    That is ironic isn't it? There were great times of Theology in the Roman Church, but moderns prefer the pagan version. In the Greek New Testament Jesus says we must "REPENT", however in the Roman bible it substitutes the word "PENANCE", so "Penance", or "Repentance"? Well we know what the word is, why does the Roman Church maintain, as late at Vatican 2 "Penance"? I would think it's clear so the Church, if you can call it that can maintain control over people, as it always had. The "Great Divide" really occurred under Constantine, if we believed what we do then, we'd be killed, or persecuted. This continued, however it wasn't until the average man, which the Church claims "Cannot understand", had scripture, that they were free. It's as clear as the read, Habakkuk "The just will live by faith", Paul "we are not saved by works of the law but FAITH". "Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS". These words are POISON, HERESY in the Roman Church, even though their found throughout scripture.

    Compare; "There is none righteous, no not one", and the Roman Church, "The Pope is infallible", where is the problem? So Roman Theology is fine, just don't call it biblical, it's not, there is no correlation between the OT and Greek New Testament and this whore called the Roman Catholic Church.

    Jesus followers were confused, in fact many left after He said "You must eat my body, and drink my blood", this is where Jesus asked His followers "Will you leave me also", and they responded "Where shall we go, you have the words of life", they left, and you must admit it seems a strange thing, UNLESS YOU KNOW THE OLD TESTAMENT, "Eating, drinking", all refer to FAITH, not a literal, disgusting eating of the Lords body. That wine and bread does not turn into human flesh and blood, nor does it need to, for we were "Perfected ONCE FOR ALL TIME", again the "Church" can't have man free, they lose their power, so they simply ignore those passages.

    Many don't know there were thousands of "Luthers", most failed, God just had His hand on Luther, so we celebrate him, there were many Wycliffe's, Huff's who all met the fate of fire on this earth. The traditional Reformed teaching on the Roman Church is that she's the "Anti-Christ", which of course is true if you look at the definition of "Anti-Christ" in 1st and 2nd John . Contrary to what many believe it's not in Revelation, or modern teaching that it's some man, "AntiChrist", it was Johns pushing back on false teachers, including the Roman Church (thought that came later of course). We cannot fellowship with Catholics, we are at enmity with them, they believe ANYTHING no matter how crazy their church teaches, we believe Scripture, so how can Christ have fellowship with the devil? He can't, neither can we.
     
    #27 Calv1, Jul 9, 2017
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  8. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I'm not a Calvinist. I'm an Augustinian. Take it up with him.

    Really? After 500 years of discussion of limited/unlimited atonement, that's the best you can do? But truthfully, is it not Catholic teaching that the atonement is limited in the respect that you mention? He didn't do quite enough, so we have to do something too? Yes, I realize that's a gross exaggeration, but on par with what you accuse "Calvinists" of.

    I really can't think of anything civil to say about such silliness..
     
    #28 rsr, Jul 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
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  9. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, utilyan, there is no Good in me. God says I am like a filthy rag. This is why I need God's grace. In Christ, I am seated in the heavenlies, holy and righteous. All glory be to Christ Jesus.
    In me...nothing good. Your belief is misplaced, utilyan.
    Every part of my sinful flesh offends God. I thank God that by His grace I am found in Christ. Christ Jesus is not offensive to God the Father. Therefore, my position in Christ makes me fully acceptable to God.
    Indeed, your God is unjust, unholy and made in your image. Unless God is gracious to you, you will not be forgiven for the perverse god you have created.
     
    #29 MennoSota, Jul 9, 2017
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  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    So your defense is scripture is wrong. You don't believe the holy scriptures. Look very hard......am I using the KJV?


    "Do you really think we never saw those texts before? Do you really think they contradict the Doctrines of Grace?:

    Yeah I don't think you ever saw those text before, and they do contradict the doctrines of Grace.

    A is the Truth.

    B is absolutely not in the bible, False doctrine.

    ^Something no bible believing christian would have trouble saying at all.


    But there you are ashamed of the word of God, You are not a bible believer, not by a long shot.
     
    #30 utilyan, Jul 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  11. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    We'll play it your way, Menno.

    Back to the wringer......


    A OR B?


    I don't believe you guys are bible believing Christians. So far one coughed up saying scripture "A" is NOT HOLY SCRIPTURE!

    Where you at? same boat?


    You can pick the bible and write the verse down yourself....... I know your in the ropes here.
     
    #31 utilyan, Jul 9, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2017
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Why not quote in the actual Bible in the case of A?
     
    #32 BobRyan, Jul 9, 2017
  13. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You play a silly game that is of no value.

    You promote a god made in your image, utilyan. Until you accept God as being just, you waste our time.
     
    #33 MennoSota, Jul 9, 2017
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  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That is the correct answer Ryan.

    They can't however, because it would be admitting they are wrong. Calvinist start with the notion they must be initially regenerated. The doctrine is more important then the scripture.

    The false verses "B" support that regeneration that precedes, They wish scripture said this. But look they can't even bring themselves to say its NOT scripture.

    In other words their answer has to be "A" because obviously like you see A is the actual scripture. But they are not willing.

    So I'm toting the False Scripture as "true". I'm saying "B" is true, A false bible which they should ought to be against as naturally as you picked up on it. The problem is its saying the very things they WISH the bible would say.

    So when it comes to what they WISH the bible says vs. what the bible actually says, they are torn up.


    If I ask you Ryan for an answer, I'm pretty confident you will say "A".

    They however are in a box.

    Martin's answer is the "A" verses are in error,

    Menno is just angry so he has to attack my character. Tap dances around the challenge.

    RSR asserts that my church teaches what Calvinist teach hah!

    Calv1 just has his hands on his ears to remind folks catholics are evil.


    The solution is easy. Open you bible. Does yours say A or B. It says the "A" verses.


    Its almost as if they do not like what the bible actually says and rather pretend its not there.
     
    #34 utilyan, Jul 10, 2017
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Why would you think that?
    Which Bible version are you using then. Whichever it is, the tenses are wrong in some cases.
    Indeed not. Why do you think that because we don't want to play your silly games, we don't believe the Bible.
    Well, my friend, here is one of your B texts:
    Why would you believe that this is Calvinism and why would you suppose that anyone on this board believes this?
    You problem is that you have no idea about doctrine, no concept about what the Doctrines of Grace are, and as for Bible truth, you wouldn't recognize it if it jumped out at you and bit you on the leg.
     
    #35 Martin Marprelate, Jul 10, 2017
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  16. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    "Indeed not. Why do you think that because we don't want to play your silly games, we don't believe the Bible."

    No kidding.


    Romans 10:10

    10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

    10for with the heart a person believes after being made righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, after salvation.


    OK so you don't believe a person believes after being made righteous(chosen elect).

    Instead you believe scripture that the person believes FIRST, Resulting in righteousness (chosen elect).
     
    #36 utilyan, Jul 10, 2017
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Calvinism -- for many Calvinists B is of the form "10 for with the heart a person believes (after being born-again, regenerated, made alive in Christ) ".

    Those who say that "being born-again, regenerated, made alive in Christ" is not saved, not justified - need a Bible text.

    Those who say that Romans 10: 10 says "10 for with the heart a person believes (after being born-again, regenerated, made alive in Christ) " need a Bible that is less paraphrase and more translation.
     
    #37 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2017
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Do you believe that the words 'righteous,' 'chosen' and 'elect' all mean the same thing? If you do, then you're even sillier than I thought you were, which is quite a feat.

    How could you conceivably imagine that someone who believes in justification by faith could suppose that someone could be justified before he believes? Crackers! :Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao
     
    #38 Martin Marprelate, Jul 10, 2017
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  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is a bit of a distraction - the 'language' they use is "regenerate" born-again, alive in Christ etc.

    So then sticking with those chosen-terms

     
    #39 BobRyan, Jul 10, 2017
  20. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    You might perhaps ask Calvinists what they believe instead of telling them. Then you might actually find out what we do believe.

    Let's get the text right first of all. Romans 10:10, NKJV. 'For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.' There is nothing whatsoever in this text that I have any difficulty with. The idea that one is righteous, or is justified, before he believes, or that he is saved before he confesses Christ is not Calvinism, but a form of hyper-Calvinism.
     
    #40 Martin Marprelate, Jul 10, 2017
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