Is the pendulum swinging in a different direction?

[righteousdude2]

After being slammed in another OP, by one member who vehemently disagreed with my believe in tongues, which for me is a prayer language, practiced in my prayer closet, I did some surfing on the net, and came across some interesting articles, in particular, articles about the movement within the SBC to hold to a prayer language, or tongues. In fact, the SBC has openly permitted its missionaries to practice tongues!

Here are some articles that should be considered before bestowing judgement of those who do have a prayer language or speak in tongues are judged and publicly crucified as heretics!

"Half of Southern Baptist pastors say they believe the Holy Spirit gives some people a special language to pray to God – what is known to some as private prayer language – a surprising new study found." Surprising Study Reveals Half Southern Baptist Pastors Believe in Gift of Tongues

Missionaries permitted to use prayer language - Southern Baptists Change Policy on Speaking in Tongues

"All spiritual gifts are divinely bestowed by our sovereign God. He can give the gifts as He pleases and to whom He pleases. No one can "develop" a gift or be "taught" how to exercise a gift. This gift must not be a test of fellowship, but it must be restricted and regulated by Scripture under the authority of the ministers of the church. It should not be a reason for disfellowship unless the one practicing the gift uses it in a way that promotes confusion and disharmony." The Baptist Press - DOCTRINE: The Bible & tongues

I am certainly not trying to create or even cause a problem, but I am curious as to how many of you may hold to having a prayer language? I think the times are a changing, and so are views! Still, one thing I would never do, is say you must believe in such-and-such gift, or receive such-and-such gift to be a Christian! I think what gifts we have been given are given of God, and that gifts should remain something between the believer and the Father! If the believer honestly feels they have a certain gift that was once practiced in the Bible, then so be it! It is not up to others t shame them, shun them or cast them out! And the article from the Baptist Press is actually the way I would hope all of us would be towards others!

 

[MennoSota]

I believe that God is free to share all spiritual gifts with his children, therefore God may give the gift of tongues today.
I also believe that the gifts are given to the benefit of the entire body of Christ, therefore there are no "private" gifts or prayer language tongues. Paul did not say he had a prayer language tongue in 1 Corinthians. He gave a "what-if" scenario where he actually spoke in an angelic language. Tongues is meant as a tool from God to preach the gospel to people who have never heard about Jesus. This is how we always see it used in the book of Acts. In Corinth the congregation was a mess and Paul brought up tongues because the congregants were bringing their pagan babel into the body and he needed to correct their errors. I would caution against emulating the Corinthian church when considering tongues.

 

[TCassidy]

God is not stupid. He understands English.

 

[Reynolds]

After being slammed in another OP, by one member who vehemently disagreed with my believe in tongues, which for me is a prayer language, practiced in my prayer closet, I did some surfing on the net, and came across some interesting articles, in particular, articles about the movement within the SBC to hold to a prayer language, or tongues. In fact, the SBC has openly permitted its missionaries to practice tongues!

Here are some articles that should be considered before bestowing judgement of those who do have a prayer language or speak in tongues are judged and publicly crucified as heretics!

"Half of Southern Baptist pastors say they believe the Holy Spirit gives some people a special language to pray to God – what is known to some as private prayer language – a surprising new study found." Surprising Study Reveals Half Southern Baptist Pastors Believe in Gift of Tongues

Missionaries permitted to use prayer language - Southern Baptists Change Policy on Speaking in Tongues

"All spiritual gifts are divinely bestowed by our sovereign God. He can give the gifts as He pleases and to whom He pleases. No one can "develop" a gift or be "taught" how to exercise a gift. This gift must not be a test of fellowship, but it must be restricted and regulated by Scripture under the authority of the ministers of the church. It should not be a reason for disfellowship unless the one practicing the gift uses it in a way that promotes confusion and disharmony." The Baptist Press - DOCTRINE: The Bible & tongues

I am certainly not trying to create or even cause a problem, but I am curious as to how many of you may hold to having a prayer language? I think the times are a changing, and so are views! Still, one thing I would never do, is say you must believe in such-and-such gift, or receive such-and-such gift to be a Christian! I think what gifts we have been given are given of God, and that gifts should remain something between the believer and the Father! If the believer honestly feels they have a certain gift that was once practiced in the Bible, then so be it! It is not up to others t shame them, shun them or cast them out! And the article from the Baptist Press is actually the way I would hope all of us would be towards others!

I have a prayer language. I do not necessarily make it private. I am friends with some pastors who admit to me a prayer language but will not admit it in public. For purposes of job security, they keep their belief hidden.

 

[Iconoclast]

My prayer language is English...no one speaks in tongues today....nobody.
The do not speak in tongues, they do not pray in tongues...mumbling out loud is not tongues....there is nothing to change about it as the bible is quite clear.

 

[MennoSota]

My prayer language is English...no one speaks in tongues today....nobody.
The do not speak in tongues, they do not pray in tongues...mumbling out loud is not tongues....there is nothing to change about it as the bible is quite clear.

There are reports on the mission field, in addressing new people groups who do not know the gospel, where God gave the missionary the ability to speak in the language of the tribe even though the language was not known. I believe that in those incidences the Holy Spirit has given the gift of tongues. They are rare, but I will not say God never grants the gift of tongues.

 

[TCassidy]

There are reports on the mission field

No, there aren't. Just a "Christian" urban myth.

 

[TCassidy]

"Tongues shall cease." They have. Paul makes it clear. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three." 1 Corinthians 13:13.

Paul did NOT say, "But now faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy and knowledge remain—these six."

So, either tongues have ceased or Paul is a liar (not to mention the bible and He Who inspired it.)

 

[Reynolds]

My prayer language is English...no one speaks in tongues today....nobody.
The do not speak in tongues, they do not pray in tongues...mumbling out loud is not tongues....there is nothing to change about it as the bible is quite clear.

The Bible is not at all clear unless you have some verses I do not have in my Bible.

 

[Reynolds]

No, there aren't. Just a "Christian" urban myth.

"Tongues shall cease." They have. Paul makes it clear. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three." 1 Corinthians 13:13.

Paul did NOT say, "But now faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy and knowledge remain—these six."

So, either tongues have ceased or Paul is a liar (not to mention the bible and He Who inspired it.)

You have to leave verse 12 out for your interpretation of verse 13 to be correct.

In this case you are stating your opinion as fact. You are in no uncertain terms saying that anyone who disagrees with you is calling The Spirit a liar. I Cor 13 is a debatable passage in the Bible. Very sound Baptist commentary agrees that the perfect is the Millenial age, not the Canon. Your name is red and you can do as you wish, but your assertion that holding a differing view than you calls The Spirit a liar is very much over the top.

 

[MennoSota]

"Tongues shall cease." They have. Paul makes it clear. "But now faith, hope, and love remain—these three." 1 Corinthians 13:13.

Paul did NOT say, "But now faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy and knowledge remain—these six."

So, either tongues have ceased or Paul is a liar (not to mention the bible and He Who inspired it.)

Paul still spoke in tongues when he wrote to the Corinthians. The time that tongues would cease is when the perfect comes. The perfect is not, in my opinion, the canon of scripture, but instead it is the return of Yeshua as the Sovereign King. Thus tongues has not yet ceased.

 

[JonC]

Paul still spoke in tongues when he wrote to the Corinthians. The time that tongues would cease is when the perfect comes. The perfect is not, in my opinion, the canon of scripture, but instead it is the return of Yeshua as the Sovereign King. Thus tongues has not yet ceased.

Another interpretation is that Paul was making the simple statement that signs are temporary in nature and end when the thing that they signify (that which is perfect) has come. Love, however, endures (love is not temporary as are sign gifts).

 

[MennoSota]

Another interpretation is that Paul was making the simple statement that signs are temporary in nature and end when the thing that they signify (that which is perfect) has come. Love, however, endures (love is not temporary as are sign gifts).

As I pointed out, there are still circumstances today where God uses signs to draw his children to himself.
I read Nabeel Qureshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" and he records how God used dreams to confirm Jesus being God and Redeemer. I have no doubts that that tongues may be used by God as a sign to reaching His elect children.
That being said, I have not yet seen tongues used that way in the church, but instead I witness many for whom tongues is a badge of pride.

 

[TCassidy]

Paul still spoke in tongues when he wrote to the Corinthians.

Yes. He already had the gift, but it was no longer being given to new converts. Those that had the gift were allowed to continue to use it. But it died out with them.

The time that tongues would cease is when the perfect comes.

Yes. When the complete revelation (the bible) comes the partial revelation (in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) will pass away. Paul was pretty clear.

The perfect is not, in my opinion, the canon of scripture, but instead it is the return of Yeshua as the Sovereign King.

Then your opinion is wrong. Paul said so.

Thus tongues has not yet ceased.

I don't think Paul (or the Holy Spirit) lied when he said "Now abides faith, hope, and love, these three."

 

[JonC]

As I pointed out, there are still circumstances today where God uses signs to draw his children to himself.
I read Nabeel Qureshi's book "Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus" and he records how God used dreams to confirm Jesus being God and Redeemer. I have no doubts that that tongues may be used by God as a sign to reaching His elect children.
That being said, I have not yet seen tongues used that way in the church, but instead I witness many for whom tongues is a badge of pride.

I agree.

 

[TCassidy]

You have to leave verse 12 out for your interpretation of verse 13 to be correct.

No, I don't.

In this case you are stating your opinion as fact.

Verse 13 is a fact.

You are in no uncertain terms saying that anyone who disagrees with you is calling The Spirit a liar.

No, disagreeing with what Paul wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is.

I Cor 13 is a debatable passage in the Bible.

No, it is very clear. "Now abides faith, hope, and love, these three." Couldn't be plainer.

 

[TCassidy]

The Bible is not at all clear

The bible is very clear, unless you allow your "experience" to trump the bible.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes. He already had the gift, but it was no longer being given to new converts. Those that had the gift were allowed to continue to use it. But it died out with them.

Yes. When the complete revelation (the bible) comes the partial revelation (in the form of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge) will pass away. Paul was pretty clear.

Then your opinion is wrong. Paul said so.

I don't think Paul (or the Holy Spirit) lied when he said "Now abides faith, hope, and love, these three."

TC, you are forcing the canon upon Paul with nothing in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 to support your opinion. I have heard your opinion shared ad naseum my entire life, yet never seen a well crafted argument that fits the context of Paul's writing to Corinth. If you wish to hold an unsubstantiated theory that is your right.

Faith, hope and love do abide. They will always abide. Tongues and prophecy will cease when Jesus, the perfect one, returns.

 

[Reynolds]

TC, you are forcing the canon upon Paul with nothing in the context of 1 Corinthians 13 to support your opinion. I have heard your opinion shared ad naseum my entire life, yet never seen a well crafted argument that fits the context of Paul's writing to Corinth. If you wish to hold an unsubstantiated theory that is your right.

Faith, hope and love do abide. They will always abide. Tongues and prophecy will cease when Jesus, the perfect one, returns.

I fully agree. This is the correct interpretation.

 

[Reynolds]

The bible is very clear, unless you allow your "experience" to trump the bible.

Has nothing to do with my experience. I came to a Biblical belief in a prayer language long before I experienced one.