Where did I say that, Many were pre mil but I don't know of any that were pre trib. At least one thought that the Millenium wast the everlasting kingdom.
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Why [I believe] Premillennialism is false
- Thread starter Saint of Circumstance
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Where did I say that, Many were pre mil but I don't know of any that were pre trib. At least one thought that the Millenium wast the everlasting kingdom.
You said "The Historicist teaching is the only non Catholic doctrine."
Pre-mil is the foundational futurist doctrine. Pre-trib, Mid-trib, Pre-wrath, and Post-trib are all variations on that theme.
While many of the prophecies were future to them, they understood them in the historicist sense,
1 the Roman Empire would be removed
2 The man of sin would follow.
3 He would be destroyed by Christ's coming.
1 Fulfilled when Constantine removed the Empire to the East
2 Fulfilled in the rise of the Papacy (after their time)
3 Will be fulfilled when Christ returns.
They couldn't know that there were many centuries in that rule. They were mistaken that Antichrist was a single man. All the other Kings in Daniel's prophecies were dynasties, and the little horn that came from the 10 horns would also be a dynasty.
Here is an interesting item on the ECF Church Fathers: A Door to Rome
So you are an historicist/futurist? How does that work?
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Absolutely.
No they are not. Pre trib denies historicimm, I don't know about the others. Pre wrath is scriptural, as the wrath is the judgement. But I don't believe that is what they think.
Mainline historicism teach that pope is antichrist. Most non Union Baptists round here would teach that Revelation gives seven parallel visions , each covering the whole history of the church.
So you are an historicist/futurist? How does that work?
Continual historicism means that there is still some which is in the future. Do you not understand that?
Revelation is the history of the Church written in advance. It isn't all fulfilled yet.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Not at all. Just demonstrating falacy that not knowing the day or hour of a coming event prevents one from knowing the general time....and demonstrating the Absolut FACT that one can be ignorant of the day and hour of a certain event, be it the birth of a baby or the 2nd coming of Christ, yet still have abolute certainty that it will come to pass before a certain amount of time passes.
Though they did not know the day or hour in advance, The apostles uniformly taught it would take place in their generation, before they had all died, before they had finished going through all of Israels' cities... They all knew and taught that it was near, about to take place, in a very little while, without delay, soon, shorty in their generation.
I believe they were correct.
Edit to note: The day and hour of Jerusalem's destruction was not revealed in advance, yet the signs of its impending doom were:
Luke 21:20-22
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Doesn't get any more clear than that.
We simply have to accept it.
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Saint of Circumstance
Member
It clearly passes the "together with them" issue... you are straining at gnats and grasping at straws.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Using your interpretation, you'd have to conclude they will remain hovering in the air forever:
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Where exactly do you find the phrase.. "continue together on to Glory" in this passage?
Seems to be missing from my Bible...
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Like.. for maintanence? or permanently?
Forgive me... newbe here... did we reach a post limit or something?
Saint of Circumstance
Member
I am not sure that is what they taught, Peter was told he would be led out to die.
The gospel was preached to all nations[
- Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
- 1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
- 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
- 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
- 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
- 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
No, your points were correct brother. Just your conclusion is different than mine.
My conclusion - He has delayed His return.
HankD
I don't think anyone is arguing that the events of AD 70 did not take place or that the Lord Jesus did not foretell them.
The question is, was that the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ in judgement on the whole earth and the inauguration of the new heavens and new earth? The answer is no! When the Lord Jesus returns it will be a physical return (Acts 1:11) and it will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7).
"So, too, when YOU see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you this generation will not pass away until all these things take place..........But of that day and hour no one knows.......but as the days of Noah were so also will the coming of the Son of Man be" (Matthew 23:33-37). Do you see? The disciples asked three questions and the Lord Jesus is answering them. There is an event for which there will be signs-- when you see them, recognize that it is near. But there's another event for which there will be no signs-- nobody knows the approximate time (day) nor the exact time (hour)-- it will be like the Flood or the destruction of Sodom.
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Right.. I addressed that already.
So you disagree that the day of His return has been appointed beforehand, as Acts 17:31 teaches?
Saint of Circumstance
Member
Of course not... that would be silly.
Great question.
I disagree
the Acts 1:11 departure was not "visible to all", a "visible to all" return would not be "in like manner" as the Acts 1:11 departure.
What do you believe Jesus meant by Near and at the door here? Thousands of years?
Again, how long do you say "near" is?
Source?
When do you say this was fulfilled?:
Matthew 21:33-45
33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country.34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them.37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”
41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”
42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:
‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?
43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”
45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Of course I agree with the passage that the day has been appointed but I disagree with you if you believe it has already happened.
HankD
You are just being obstreperous now. If you don't want to honestly discuss the issue just bow out gracefully.
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