World or elect

[agedman]

I never made mention of believers.

This is true, you didn’t.

So, yes the unbeliever can and I have heard such blasphemy.

This is a bit off from the blasphemy, but when I was much younger, hearing the Batman say, “Holy.....” I was alarmed. That became a show not to allow the children to watch. Not saying Batman was using blasphemy, but suggesting it was a step in that direction.

 

[Calminian]

This is true, you didn’t.

So, yes the unbeliever can and I have heard such blasphemy.

This is a bit off from the blasphemy, but when I was much younger, hearing the Batman say, “Holy.....” I was alarmed. That became a show not to allow the children to watch. Not saying Batman was using blasphemy, but suggesting it was a step in that direction.

Maybe the BOS is much broader than that. Maybe it refers to all who reject Christ. Have you looked closely at some of the blasphemy verses? Notice how universal the forgiveness is.

Matt. 12:31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.​

"Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven except....." Instead of some vague sin that supposedly can't be forgiven, maybe Christ was just speaking of unbelief (perhaps a sustained unbelief to the point of hardening).

The verse above seems to have no exceptions. Everyone will be forgiven except those that commit the BOS.

 

[TCassidy]

1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

How is that possible? Not sure. I just know that's what Scripture says so I believe it.

The answer to your question lies in the meaning of ολου του κοσμου. Once you come to a correct understanding of that phrase your problem will go away.

 

[TCassidy]

They have been taught, that when Christ died on the cross 2000 ;years ago, He paid for the sins of the previously chosen elect.

The only alternative to that is that He did NOT pay for the sins of the elect.

So if someone like myself says Christ died for all mankind

As we all believe. 2 Corinthians 5:15 "And that he died for all . . ."

they smear me

No, Van. We correct your error of understanding.

They do this on purpose, to obfuscate their actual bogus doctrine.

Please do not call the doctrine of the Atonement "bogus."

To nullify 1 John 2:2, they redefine the meaning of world,

Yes. We recognize there are several different ways "κοσμος" can be translated.

saying it means this here, that over there, and this other thing elsewhere.

Please, Van. Nobody who believes in Particular Redemption believes any such thing. You can't just make this stuff up as you go alone. But your saying this proves my point that you have a seriously mistaken understanding of Particular Redemption. You argue against a fiction of your own making.

But John almost always uses the word translated "world" to refer to mankind, or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind.

Yes. To the nations of mankind. Not just the Jews, but some from every tongue, tribe, and nation.

Paying the ransom for the whole world of mankind does not save anyone, or remove the specific sins of anyone. But it does mean anyone of the world, when transferred into Christ, has his or her specific sin burden (what God holds against him or her) removed.

That is a pretty tortured theory. Either Christ's sacrifice atones for a person's sin or it doesn't. You can't have it not atoning then suddenly atoning.

 

[Calminian]

The only alternative to that is that He did NOT pay for the sins of the elect. ....

..... according to human wisdom, yes, I can see where you get this. I just don't trust my human wisdom. One of the flaws of modern seminaries might be they build up too much trust in human wisdom. I mean, if you can earn a theology degree, you must be pretty smart. Just trust yourself!!

I don't have this dilemma. If scripture speaks clearly on one issues and clearly on another, I trust both and accept the apparent tension. I really have no problem believing Christ paid it all for all, and yet not all will be saved. If I can't figure out how to reconcile those in this lifetime, I'll surely understand it in the next.

 

[agedman]

The answer to your question lies in the meaning of ολου του κοσμου. Once you come to a correct understanding of that phrase your problem will go away.

Perhaps,

What understanding would you bring that has not been already expressed by the context of the sentence?

Remember that the vast majority of the readers are not schooled in the Greek, so such a post provides such with no edification to grant them.

This is not a post of rebuke, but of encouraging you to put more of your vast and absolutely wonderful ability to the level that truth prevail even to the “plow boy” of the B.B.

To that point, I encourage you to take, ολου του κοσμου , and put your thinking to review, dispute, validation or refute.

 

[TCassidy]

Remember that the vast majority of the readers are not schooled in the Greek, so such a post provides such with no edification to grant them.

He didn't ask.

To that point, I encourage you to take, ολου του κοσμου , and put your thinking to review, dispute, validation or refute.

I already did.

 

[agedman]

He didn't ask.

I already did.

Why should he have to ask?

Are all readers able to ask, or does intimidation from lack of learning and even ones not signed on and lurking with interest on the sidelines prevent the asking?

I saw an acknowledgement of use under multiple definitions, however, in terms of “world” used as limited to the elect, it is not found in the thread at this point.

It would seem you would disagree, so again the effort you extend would benefit the readers.

 

[TCassidy]

..... according to human wisdom, yes, I can see where you get this. I just don't trust my human wisdom. One of the flaws of modern seminaries might be they build up too much trust in human wisdom.

Well, I can't demean and condemn that which God commands and commends.


Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon, the son of David, king of Israel:
2 to know wisdom and instruction; to discern the words of understanding;

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 2:2 So as to turn your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding;

Proverbs 2:6 For Yahweh gives wisdom. Out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.
7 He lays up sound wisdom for the upright. He is a shield to those who walk in integrity;

Proverbs 2:10 For wisdom will enter into your heart. Knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gets understanding.

Proverbs 3:21 My son, let them not depart from your eyes. Keep sound wisdom and discretion:

Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom. Get understanding. Don’t forget, and don’t deviate from the words of my mouth.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is supreme. Get wisdom. Yes, though it costs all your possessions, get understanding.

Proverbs 4:11 I have taught you in the way of wisdom. I have led you in straight paths.

Proverbs 5:1 My son, pay attention to my wisdom. Turn your ear to my understanding:

Proverbs 7:4 Tell wisdom, “You are my sister.” Call understanding your relative,

Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies. All the things that may be desired can’t be compared to it.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom. The knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 10:13 Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has discernment, but a rod is for the back of him who is void of understanding.

Proverbs 10:23 It is a fool’s pleasure to do wickedness, but wisdom is a man of understanding’s pleasure.

Proverbs 10:31 The mouth of the righteous produces wisdom, but the perverse tongue will be cut off.

Proverbs 12:8 A man shall be commended according to his wisdom, but he who has a warped mind shall be despised.

Proverbs 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is with people who take advice.

Proverbs 14:6 A scoffer seeks wisdom, and doesn’t find it, but knowledge comes easily to a discerning person.

Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to think about his way, but the folly of fools is deceit.

Proverbs 14:33 Wisdom rests in the heart of one who has understanding, and is even made known in the inward part of fools.

Proverbs 15:33 The fear of Yahweh teaches wisdom. Before honor is humility.

Proverbs 16:16 How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! Yes, to get understanding is to be chosen rather than silver.

Proverbs 17:24 Wisdom is before the face of one who has understanding, but the eyes of a fool wander to the ends of the earth.

Proverbs 18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are like deep waters. The fountain of wisdom is like a flowing brook.

Proverbs 19:8 He who gets wisdom loves his own soul. He who keeps understanding shall find good.

Proverbs 21:11b When the wise is instructed, he receives knowledge.

Proverbs 23:9 Don’t speak in the ears of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and don’t sell it. Get wisdom, discipline, and understanding.

Proverbs 28:26 One who trusts in himself is a fool; but one who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

 

[agedman]

Well, I can't demean and condemn that which God commands and commends.


Proverbs 1:1 The proverbs of Solomon, the son of David, king of Israel:
2 to know wisdom and instruction; to discern the words of understanding;

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of knowledge; but the foolish despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 2:2 So as to turn your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to understanding;

Proverbs 2:6 For Yahweh gives wisdom. Out of his mouth comes knowledge and understanding.
7 He lays up sound wisdom for the upright. He is a shield to those who walk in integrity;

Proverbs 2:10 For wisdom will enter into your heart. Knowledge will be pleasant to your soul.

Proverbs 3:13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, the man who gets understanding.

Proverbs 3:21 My son, let them not depart from your eyes. Keep sound wisdom and discretion:

Proverbs 4:5 Get wisdom. Get understanding. Don’t forget, and don’t deviate from the words of my mouth.

Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is supreme. Get wisdom. Yes, though it costs all your possessions, get understanding.

Proverbs 4:11 I have taught you in the way of wisdom. I have led you in straight paths.

Proverbs 5:1 My son, pay attention to my wisdom. Turn your ear to my understanding:

Proverbs 7:4 Tell wisdom, “You are my sister.” Call understanding your relative,

Proverbs 8:11 For wisdom is better than rubies. All the things that may be desired can’t be compared to it.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom. The knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

Proverbs 10:13 Wisdom is found on the lips of him who has discernment, but a rod is for the back of him who is void of understanding.

Proverbs 10:23 It is a fool’s pleasure to do wickedness, but wisdom is a man of understanding’s pleasure.

Proverbs 10:31 The mouth of the righteous produces wisdom, but the perverse tongue will be cut off.

Proverbs 12:8 A man shall be commended according to his wisdom, but he who has a warped mind shall be despised.

Proverbs 13:10 Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is with people who take advice.

Proverbs 14:6 A scoffer seeks wisdom, and doesn’t find it, but knowledge comes easily to a discerning person.

Proverbs 14:8 The wisdom of the prudent is to think about his way, but the folly of fools is deceit.

Proverbs 14:33 Wisdom rests in the heart of one who has understanding, and is even made known in the inward part of fools.

Proverbs 15:33 The fear of Yahweh teaches wisdom. Before honor is humility.

Proverbs 16:16 How much better it is to get wisdom than gold! Yes, to get understanding is to be chosen rather than silver.

Proverbs 17:24 Wisdom is before the face of one who has understanding, but the eyes of a fool wander to the ends of the earth.

Proverbs 18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are like deep waters. The fountain of wisdom is like a flowing brook.

Proverbs 19:8 He who gets wisdom loves his own soul. He who keeps understanding shall find good.

Proverbs 21:11b When the wise is instructed, he receives knowledge.

Proverbs 23:9 Don’t speak in the ears of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words.

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and don’t sell it. Get wisdom, discipline, and understanding.

Proverbs 28:26 One who trusts in himself is a fool; but one who walks in wisdom is kept safe.

These are examples of human wisdom?

Are you suggesting that the use of “world” in the NT does not conform to the wisdom of God when placed as referring to the “elect?”

Please show a single verse that states the word “world” :eans the “elect.”

 

[Calminian]

These are examples of human wisdom?

I had the same reaction.

 

[TCassidy]

Please show a single verse that states the word “world” :eans the “elect.”

Why do you keep harping on this? I have NEVER made such a claim!

 

[TCassidy]

I had the same reaction.

If not people (humans) just who is it you think God is commanding to "get wisdom" and who is God commending for having got wisdom?

 

[agedman]

If not people (humans) just who is it you think God is commanding to "get wisdom" and who is God commending for having got wisdom?

Ok, i’m Just as confused as a termite in an old fashioned wooden yo-yo!

Does any of this pertain to the question of the thread?

 

[TCassidy]

Does any of this pertain to the question of the thread?

It pertains to a discussion between Calminian and me.

 

[agedman]

It pertains to a discussion between Calminian and me.

Ok, just wondering through the wandering.

 

[Calminian]

It pertains to a discussion between Calminian and me.

I'm just as confused. I said I didn't trust my human wisdom. You then posted a bunch of verse about God's wisdom. With that, let's get back to the OP.

 

[TCassidy]

I'm just as confused. I said I didn't trust my human wisdom. You then posted a bunch of verse about God's wisdom. With that, let's get back to the OP.

God gives wisdom to those who seek it. To demean wisdom that others have sought, and received, as a response to their calling, seems to me like a cheap shot at those who have chosen to follow the Lord in pursuit of higher education.

 

[Calminian]

God gives wisdom to those who seek it. To demean wisdom that others have sought, and received, as a response to their calling, seems to me like a cheap shot at those who have chosen to follow the Lord in pursuit of higher education.

So by me saying "I don't trust my human wisdom" I am demeaning the wisdom others have sought. Wow. Not sure how to respond, so I won't.

I say let's respect the OP, and get back on topic.

 

[TCassidy]

Wisdom is not human hubris. Wisdom comes from God. To suggest that those who study God's word, and learn God's word, are untrustworthy is hubris, not wisdom.