Seventh-day Adventists

[SwordBearer]

I wanted to make this thread to talk about this schism of Christianity. I am a former Adventist, and wanted to talk about some of their theological points. I have been exposed to King James Onlyism also in the past. Dr. Peter Ruckman has spoke on the SDA's too, but let's talk more about them here.

The Adventists are a unique sect similar to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses (who actually came from Adventism). They believe in soul sleep, and annihilationism. They hold to the seventh-day (Saturday) being the correct and only valid day for worship and rest. Discuss.

 

[BobRyan]

As the Bible points out - the Christians were called "a sect" of Judaism. Satan still uses that method to identify that which he does not like.

As Walter Martin pointed out in his book "Kingdom of the Cults" Adventists are not at all cult and Hoekema was entirly mistaken to mislable them as such in his research.

Adventists are much like Seventh-day Baptists in being trinitarian (One God in three persons), believing in the Bible 7th day Sabbath, accepting all 66 books of the Bible and like the "Baptist confession of faith" section 19 - accepting the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments are included in the LAW of God written on the heart under the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33

The "complaint" raised in the OP appears to be that Adventists believe 1 Thess 4 "as it reads". On that point we do agree.

And while I am in fact the actual Seventh-day Adventist on this board with 31,000 messages.. I would like to know what SwordBearer wanted to contribute to this topic.

 

[BobRyan]

I wanted to make this thread to talk about this schism of Christianity. I am a former Adventist, and wanted to talk about some of their theological points. I have been exposed to King James Onlyism also in the past. Dr. Peter Ruckman has spoke on the SDA's too, but let's talk more about them here.

The Adventists are a unique sect similar to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses (who actually came from Adventism). They believe in soul sleep, and annihilationism. They hold to the seventh-day (Saturday) being the correct and only valid day for worship and rest. Discuss.

Name sounds familiar -- have I met you on another board??

 

[SwordBearer]

I'm not sure... It's possible we have met...

I classify them as a cult, not to degrade you as a brother in Christ, Bob, but because of the focal point on Ellen White. I was an Adventist. Ellen White was the focal point of many of their key doctrines and pillars. She taught the false shut door doctrine, and the investigative judgment. She and Joseph Smith share a lot of similarities. Mormonism's Joseph Smith and Ellen White Ellen White taught some unscirptural things, such as ministers should avoid the "the evil practice of eating meat." Eating meat, while was not Adam and Eve's orignal diet, is not sinful or forbidden, or evil.

Also, in Genesis 9:3, Noah was allowed to eat of ALL flesh, it never says he is disallowed to eat the Leviticus 11 dietary restrictions.

She predicted the Lord's return to be translated, and they have all died since then and been deed for 100-some years. She made a false prophecy about the civil war and England taking America.

In their doctrine of death: The Bible says it is appointed once for man to die, and after this the judgment... (Heb. 9:27) to be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord, (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23) and Scripture affirms this in 1 Thes 4:14 when we see the souls of the departed saints RETURNING with the Lord at His second coming... We also see in Genesis 35:18 that Rachael's soul was in departing when they were dying, not just their spirit. These are a few example.

I find that soul-sleep and annihilationism go hand-in-hand. While the annihilationism gives me peace of mind, we know that hell is an everlasting punishment of everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Hell is a serious consequence for sin, and we are in dire need of the Saviour to save us; In fact, He is the only one able to save us... (Acts 4:12)
I think the Bible can easily be understood by anybody who picks it up and reads it... we have no need of the Pope, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker, or Ellen White to interpret it for us. Without her interpretation, I don't really see

I think none of us are worthy to earn our way into heaven; that is the real issue. I do believe that there are many great people in the Adventist church who really are sincere in their faith, but I think they are wrong...

Here are some websites and videos with more information on her, that go into better detail than my condensed summarized version... I pray they're a blessing and informative.

www.nonegw.com
www.exadventist.com
www.rethinkingadventism.com

7th Day Adventist Exposed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvvKpd_a0x4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN1lGbAGOz8

Blessings, brother.
Matt

 

[BobRyan]

I'm not sure... It's possible we have met...

I classify them as a cult, not to degrade you as a brother in Christ, Bob, but because of the focal point on Ellen White. I was an Adventist

Matt - I suppose "it is possible" that you are an ex-Adventist because you differ with Ellen White but otherwise agree with Adventists on all Bible doctrines... but frankly I have never found an ex-Adventist in that category. My guess is that you too - are not in that category.

So it is pretty much pointless to start off on the Ellen White subject unless you are really saying you are opposing the 1Cor 12 teaching on spiritual gifts first and secondly that Ellen White had one.

. Ellen White was the focal point of many of their key doctrines and pillars.

I have been to a great many SDA evangelistic meetings and at not one has there ever been a doctrine taught "from Ellen White" - it was all from the Bible.

If you went to those meetings -- you probably know this as well.

In their doctrine of death: The Bible says it is appointed once for man to die, and after this the judgment... (Heb. 9:27) to be absent from the body is to be present from the Lord, (2 Cor. 5:8, Phil. 1:23)

No text in all of scripture says "TO BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord" and we both know it. Not even 2 Cor 5:8 says such a thing. That is merely a "misquote" in the form of "wishful thinking" that many people use then stick 2Cor 5:8 on to it as if it were true.

and Scripture affirms this in 1 Thes 4:14 when we see the souls of the departed saints RETURNING with the Lord at His second coming...

1 Thess 4 says that all those who die are the "dead in Christ" and "those who have fallen asleep" -- dormant.

The spirits coming back in that case "are dormant" according to 1 Thess 4.

Which is why as Christ said "God is not the God of the dead" - in Matt 22 as His PROOF of the future resurrection.

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Cor 15 - Paul describes TWO bodies -- the old decaying one that we are in now and the one that we get at the 2nd coming - at the resurrection.

In 2 Cor 5:1-8 Paul again reminds us of the TWO bodies doctrine already described in detail in 1 Cor 15.

21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming,

50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “Death is swallowed up in victory. 5



2 Cor 5 -- Two bodies ... Three states
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked. 4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.

6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord— 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight— 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

I think none of us are worthy to earn our way into heaven; that is the real issue

Matt - even Walter Martin (not an SDA at all) admitted that SDAs accept the Bible doctrine that we are saved by grace through faith. So then "yeah" no one is "worthy to earn their way to heaven"

In our Fun damental Beliefs that is belief number 10 and 15
https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf


15 Baptism
By baptism we confess our faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and testify of our death to sin and of our purpose to walk in newness of life. Thus we acknowledge Christ as Lord and Saviour, become His people, and are received as members by His church. Baptism is a symbol of our union with Christ, the forgiveness of our sins, and our reception of the Holy Spirit. It is by immersion in water and is contingent on an affirmation of faith in Jesus and evidence of repentance of sin. It follows instruction in the Holy Scriptures and acceptance of their teachings. (Matt. 28:19, 20; Acts 2:38; 16:30-33; 22:16;
Rom. 6:1-6; Gal. 3:27; Col. 2:12, 13.)

10. The Experience of Salvation
In infinite love and mercy God made Christ, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, so that in Him we might be made the righteousness of God. Led by the Holy Spirit we sense our need, acknowledge our sinfulness, repent of our transgressions, and exercise faith in Jesus as Saviour and Lord, Substitute and Example. This saving faith comes through the divine power of the Word and is the gift of God’s grace. Through Christ we are justified, adopted as God’s sons and daughters, and delivered
from the lordship of sin. Through the Spirit we are born again and sanctified; the Spirit renews our minds, writes God’s law of love in our hearts, and we are given the power to live a holy life. Abiding in Him we become partakers of the divine nature and have the assurance of salvation now and in the judgment. (Gen. 3:15; Isa. 45:22; 53; Jer. 31:31-34; Ezek. 33:11;
36:25-27; Hab. 2:4; Mark 9:23, 24; John 3:3-8, 16; 16:8; Rom. 3:21-26; 8:1-4, 14-17; 5:6-10; 10:17; 12:2; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Gal. 1:4;
3:13, 14, 26; 4:4-7; Eph. 2:4-10; Col. 1:13, 14; Titus 3:3-7; Heb. 8:7-12; 1 Peter 1:23; 2:21, 22; 2 Peter 1:3, 4; Rev. 13:8.)

 

[thatbrian]

I wanted to make this thread to talk about this schism of Christianity. I am a former Adventist, and wanted to talk about some of their theological points. I have been exposed to King James Onlyism also in the past. Dr. Peter Ruckman has spoke on the SDA's too, but let's talk more about them here.

The Adventists are a unique sect similar to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses (who actually came from Adventism). They believe in soul sleep, and annihilationism. They hold to the seventh-day (Saturday) being the correct and only valid day for worship and rest. Discuss.

The road is wide, and many are on it. . .

There are a thousand ways to have a religion, but no gospel. There are a million paths that lead to destruction but only one Way to eternal life. There are endless ways in which to justify yourself, but only one way to be justified.

 

[BobRyan]

Amen! My point exactly

 

[robycop3]

The Seven-Day-Adlibbers have many,MANY false doctrines, "having a FORM of godliness, while denying the POWER of it."

First, their "Saturday Sabbath" concept for Christians is Biblically disproven:
1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Acts 20:7
John 20:19, 26
Romans 14:5-6
Colossians 2:16-17

Their claim the RCC changed the special day of worship from Saturday to Sunday is false, as many "early Church fathers" wrote of congregations meeting on Sunday, long before the RCC existed. While the RCC is guilty of many false doctrines & practices, they merely adopted an established custom when they began meeting on Sundays.

Besides, the Sabbath was given ONLY TO ISRAEL as a special sign between they & God.

Their 'soul sleep' thingie is false. In Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar lazarus, we see both of them are conscious, as is Abraham, in that parable. And Jesus' parables always represent real events, conditions, etc.

Ellen G. White wrote,

"Christ took upon His sinless nature our sinful nature. Christ took our nature and it's deteriorating condition."

(Q.D. p.654-656).

This, of course, is false. Jesus had a sinless human nature. He took the PUNISHMENT for our sins, not a sin nature.

EGW wrote that Jesus began His "investigative judgment" in 1844 by entering the heavenly temple. Nothing like that is mentioned in SCRIPTURE. Being God, Jesus does not need any time to judge anyone.

They wrongly believe, from EGW's writings, that Satan will be the scapegoat for our sins. They ignore the fact that JESUS bore the penalty for all human sin, past, present, & future.

They teach "baptismal regeneration", that is, one MUST be baptized to be saved. This is disproven by JESUS HIMSELF, who saved the repentant thief on the cross, who couldn't possibly have been baptized. And also, the best-known verse in the Bible, John 3:16, mentions no baptism requirement! (As a Baptist, I believe all new Christians SHOULD be baptized if at all possible, I don't believe one who cannot be baptized before death remains unsaved!)

THEY FALSELY CLAIM THAT JESUS IS THE ARCHANGEL MICHAEL!

“The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty.”

SOURCE: Ellen G. White (1903, ms 150, SDA; Commentary V, p. 1129)

EGW also wrote:

"Michael, or Christ, with the angels that buried Moses...

"

(Jude 9, Spiritual Gifts, IV a, p. 158)

"And before the context closed Christ Himself came to Gabriel's aid--Gabriel declares 'But lo, Michael, one of the Chief Princes came to help me"

(Daniel 10:13, Prophets & Kings, p.572)

"There is none that holdeth with me in these things but Michael (Christ) your prince."

(Desire of Ages, p.99)

And Jude 1:9 of their "Clear Word Bible reads,

"In contrast to these ungodly men is the Lord Jesus Christ, also called Michael, the archangel in charge of the entire angelic host. When He was challenged by Satan about His intentions to resurrect Moses, He didn't come against Satan with a blistering attack nor did he belittle him. He simply said, 'God rejects your claim to his body.'"

But, what did GOD say? Heb. 1:5[colot=red]For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”?[/color]

Heb. 1:15 color=red] But to which of the angels did He at any time say: “Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool”?[/color]

These verses are reflecting back upon Psalm 2:7.

AND THIS IS BUT A SHORT LIST OF SDA HERESIES AND FALSE DOCTRINES!

( Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson, 1872-1968, an SDA preacher/teacher/official's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, is the "foundation stone' of the current false KJVO myth.)

 

[thatbrian]

We only need one test. Does it hold, to the gospel of the Apostles or a false gospel?

 

[BobRyan]

The Seven-Day-Adlibbers have many,MANY false doctrines, "having a FORM of godliness, while denying the POWER of it."

False accusations are a dime a dozen... very easy to make.

First, their "Saturday Sabbath" concept for Christians is Biblically disproven:
1 Corinthians 16:1-2
Acts 20:7
John 20:19, 26
Romans 14:5-6
Colossians 2:16-17

Not one text there saying that Sunday is the Lord's Day, or that it is Sabbath or that the NT saints meet every week day 1.. So you 'quote nothing'??

Their claim the RCC changed the special day of worship from Saturday to Sunday

Catholics themselves make that claim.


=================================================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" page 243


"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"


========================================
and still another Catholic document
======================================

Convert's Catechism

Full text of "The convert's catechism of Catholic doctrine"


3. The Third Commandment.

Q. What is the Third Commandment?

A. The Third Commandment is: Remember

that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.

-----------------------------------------------------


Q. Which is the Sabbath day ?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday ?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Q. Why did the Catholic Church substitute

Sunday for Saturday?

A. The Church substituted Sunday for Saturday, because Christ rose from the dead on a Sunday, and the Holy Ghost descended upon the Apostles on a Sunday.

 

[BobRyan]

We only need one test. Does it hold, to the gospel of the Apostles or a false gospel?

Amen!

 

[BobRyan]

1 Thess 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 11
11 This He said, and after that He *said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.” 12 The disciples then said to Him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” 13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep. 14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,

Their 'soul sleep' thingie is false.

"their soul sleep"?? did Adventists write 1 Thess 4???

In Jesus' parable of the rich man & the beggar lazarus, we see

"parable".

Which means that even though it says Abraham is the sovereign of heaven to whom all must pray - it is not true in real life.

 

[BobRyan]

They teach "baptismal regeneration",

Total nonsense.

Ad lib much??

False accusations are a dime a dozen... very easy to make.

 

[utilyan]

I'm Catholic, There is enough right in Seventh Day Adventist to if you put it in full practice I'm pretty sure you can be a loving Saint. Despite being a paranoid with the idea one day Catholics are going to kill everyone because they don't worship on Sundays.


The big thing SDA needs to change is their support of ABORTION.

You don't hear them call it murder, get a bunch of personal "i dont like abortions" but SDA OFFICIAL WEBSITE its your choice.

In fact I had to wait bout half-year to get bob to cough up it was murder. Probably took another year or so for him to cough up the Adventist Hospitals kills , but now they don't control the hospitals.

So we are looking at another year for him to cough up they control the hospitals.

But before that it was "well do we rely know if there is a soul there" typical plethora of abortion defense. or "Look at what these bad Catholics are doing"

If you ever want someone in the SDA to turn tail, bring up abortion.


"Though we walk the fence, Adventists lean toward abortion rather than against it. Because we realize we are confronted by big problems of hunger and overpopulation, we do not oppose family planning and appropriate endeavors to control population." -- Neal C. Wilson SDA President of NA Division. 1970


Here is the kicker folks, MY SOURCE?
Abortion: history of Adventist guidelines - Ministry Magazine

• ©2017 GENERAL CONFERENCE OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.

Maybe Bob can tell us why killing children is a better way to fix the problem of world hunger and overpopulation?

 

[BobRyan]

And Jude 1:9 of their "Clear Word Bible reads,

"their clear word Bible"????

Jack writes a Bible commentary-paraphrase for his grand kids and now you want to make it a "Bible" for ALL SDAs?

Ad lib much??

 

[BobRyan]

I'm Catholic, There is enough right in Seventh Day Adventist to if you put it in full practice I'm pretty sure you can be a loving Saint. Despite being a paranoid with the idea one day Catholics are going to kill everyone because they don't worship on Sundays.


The big thing SDA needs to change is their support of ABORTION.

Look at the 28 Fundamental Beliefs of SDAs -- not one word in favor of abortion. Ellen White condemned it.

Now look at the Supreme Court of the USA as well as Congress.. if all Catholics on the Supreme Court voted against abortion.. no more abortion in USA. Period.

 

[BobRyan]

( Dr. Benjamin Wilkinson, 1872-1968, an SDA preacher/teacher/official's 1930 book, Our Authorized Bible Vindicated, is the "foundation stone' of the current false KJVO myth.)

Ben had free will.

But it is totally false that SDAs do not use NKJV/NASB/YLT/Holeman/KJV or any other translation they wish..

And we all know it. (Esp after having me quote the NASB for all these years on this board)

 

[BobRyan]

They wrongly believe, from EGW's writings, that Satan will be the scapegoat for our sins. They ignore the fact that JESUS bore the penalty for all human sin, past, present, & future.

More Bible - less making stuff up please.

In Lev 16 "The Sin Offering" is "the Lord's goat" - and all sin offerings are burnt offerings in Leviticus. Period.

Thus Lev 16
9 Then Aaron shall offer the goat on which the lot for the Lord fell, and make it a sin offering. ..

15 “Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering which is for the people, and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat


"The goat of the sin offering" is slaughtered... it does not 'survive'.

The scapegoat is not a "sin offering" ... it survives.