Confessions of a Columbia Evangelical Seminary Mentor

[Rhetorician]

To whom it may concern:

I presently have a student who will be finishing his Master's degree under me. I cannot/will not tell much of whom or where he is ministering for obvious reasons.

However, I can and am willing to comment on the program at CES et al, amount of work required, work rigor, etc. Let me hear from you. I hope my own credibility will help sell the program.

I open myself up to this as polemic and apologetic for CES and its program of study.

I will be watching the BB and will be happy to take on all reasonably questions and comments.

Having said that, I request that you "Be nice!" :smilewinkgrin:

Here is the web page:

http://www.columbiaseminary.org/

"That is all!"

 

[UZThD]

I think your own credibility is an excellent endorsement of CES.

I respect Rick and doubt that he'd allow anything that would lend support to easy, and therefore, IMO, unChristian, grad degrees in Bible/Theology.If my plate were not already full I would join CES and did for 6-8 months once. The possible disadvantage may be utility, but I doubt it is lack of rigor.

 

[Crucified in Christ]

To whom it may concern:

I presently have a student who will be finishing his Master's degree under me. I cannot/will not tell much of whom or where he is ministering for obvious reasons.

However, I can and am willing to comment on the program at CES et al, amount of work required, work rigor, etc. Let me hear from you. I hope my own credibility will help sell the program.

I open myself up to this as polemic and apologetic for CES and its program of study.

I will be watching the BB and will be happy to take on all reasonably questions and comments.

Having said that, I request that you "Be nice!" :smilewinkgrin:

Here is the web page:

http://www.columbiaseminary.org/

"That is all!"

Rhet,

Am I correct in understanding that CES is structured for research oriented degrees...in a similar way to the SA schools?

 

[Rhetorician]

CiC Response

Rhet,

Am I correct in understanding that CES is structured for research oriented degrees...in a similar way to the SA schools?

CiC,

Thank you for your interests. That is correct. It is built on the SA or English model of studying with a mentor in one area, or what has been called "reading for a degree."

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Crucified in Christ]

That is a very interesting approach. I appreciate the idea of doing in-depth research, organizing and writing a dissertation. While classes can be beneficial, they are (IMO) overrated. I believe that Warren Wiersbe stated that the entire point of Seminary is to make the student a life-long student of God's Word. Reading, researching, organizing, praying, writing and editing certainly fits the bill. Thank you for the info; if I think of any other questions, I will get back to you.

 

[Martin]

Rhet,

As you know, I have toyed around with the idea of earning a doctoral degree. I looked at Columbia Evangelical Seminary and started an application process for the Doctor of Education program at Liberty University. The EdD program would have worked great but my teaching load for the Spring and Fall just does not allow me to work and take doctoral level courses at the same time. The problem I had with the CES program is utility. Even though I plan to continue teaching with the community college system there may come a day when I wish to move up to the UNC system or get into community college administration. In such a case, a CES degree would do me no good. That is why I am still thinking about a Doctor of Education program (either through Liberty or ECU). The Doctor of Education degree, from a regionally accredited university, would give me those options. A doctoral degree from CES would allow me neither. So, when it comes to a doctoral degree, I think I will one day pursue a EdD. Though I must confess that CES offers an attractive program that allows students to pursue their academic interests. Schools like CES serve a purpose and are wonderful options for pastors and missionaries. However for those planning to teach, at the college or university level, a regionally accredited program is a must.

 

[TomVols]

Schools like CES serve a purpose and are wonderful options for pastors and missionaries. However for those planning to teach, at the college or university level, a regionally accredited program is a must.

I agree totally.

 

[Havensdad]

{quoted a post that was deleted per BB rules}

 

[Rhetorician]

olefundybob Reply

{removed quote of edited post per BB rules}

Hello Dear oldfundybob,

I want to welcome you to the BB. In this section we discuss, as gentle people, issues having to do with academics, degrees, schools, Bible colleges, seminaries and such.

I opened the OP with just an observation that I thought many or my dear colleagues here might want to know of my experiences. I would be happy to answer any questions that you might have concerning CES if you wish to ask in a civilized manner? I would be more than happy to oblige you.

And I just wonder what your particular issue is with the school. I am lettered and I have enough "learnins" to know if I want to be aligned with an institution or not.

Please post a decent question and I will be glad to address it in a scholarly and/or gentlemanly manner.

By the by, feel free to send me a private post or email.

I await your response. Thank you very much. :smilewinkgrin:

"That is all!"

PS Do you realize that this is the fellowship section of the BB and not the "Fighting Fundamentist's" section?

 

[TomVols]

Moderator's note

A quick reminder that has already been expressed: this is a fellowship forum and the bar is much lower here when talking about language that is inflammatory. It just won't be tolerated.

 

[Rhetorician]

Tom Response

A quick reminder that has already been expressed: this is a fellowship forum and the bar is much lower here when talking about language that is inflammatory. It just won't be tolerated.

Hello Tom,

Did you mean this for me? If so I repent and apologize. :smilewinkgrin:

Please advise when possible.

"That is all!"

 

[TomVols]

Actually, no :smilewinkgrin:

You are a gentleman, and I appreciate you and your ministry as well as your demeanor.

 

[exscentric]

Yep, but the de meaner he gets the.... uh ... oh, crawling back under me rock. :laugh:

 

[Crabtownboy]

CiC,

Thank you for your interests. That is correct. It is built on the SA or English model of studying with a mentor in one area, or what has been called "reading for a degree."

"That is all!" :smilewinkgrin:

The International Baptist Theological Seminary, IBTS, in Prague, Czech Republic is built on the SA or English model. In fact, their degrees are conferred by the University of Wales and, I believe, the Charles University in Prague. I may be wrong about Charles University. I have been impressed by the work I have seen done there. It is not an easy program ... no Ph.D. program is easy. There are some Americans and Canadians working on degrees at IBTS. The large majority of the students are from the old Warsaw Pact countries, a few from the Mid-East and occasionally from Africa. Being set up on an SA model the advanced degree students, especially those working on Ph.Ds travel to Prague two or three times a year for what they call "Intensives," where the student meets with his adviser, attends lectures, give lectures and gathers resources for his/her papers and thesis.

The library at IBTS is the largest collection of theological books in English in continental Europe. About 75% of the collection is in English and the vast majority of the other 25% is in German.

I though this bit of information might be of interest to you on this thread.

 

[paidagogos]

Authority to grant degrees...........

The International Baptist Theological Seminary, IBTS, in Prague, Czech Republic is built on the SA or English model. In fact, their degrees are conferred by the University of Wales and, I believe, the Charles University in Prague. I may be wrong about Charles University. I have been impressed by the work I have seen done there. It is not an easy program ... no Ph.D. program is easy. There are some Americans and Canadians working on degrees at IBTS. The large majority of the students are from the old Warsaw Pact countries, a few from the Mid-East and occasionally from Africa. Being set up on an SA model the advanced degree students, especially those working on Ph.Ds travel to Prague two or three times a year for what they call "Intensives," where the student meets with his adviser, attends lectures, give lectures and gathers resources for his/her papers and thesis.

The library at IBTS is the largest collection of theological books in English in continental Europe. About 75% of the collection is in English and the vast majority of the other 25% is in German.

I though this bit of information might be of interest to you on this thread.

So, what is the source of their degree-granting authority? Are these PhDs recognized as comparable to a regionally accredited degree in the USA? Sounds interesting.........

 

[Rhetorician]

Tom Response

Actually, no :smilewinkgrin:

You are a gentleman, and I appreciate you and your ministry as well as your demeanor.

Tom,

Thank you very much. But being a serious student of rhetoric as I am, I can tell with my keen analytical skills who is given to hyperbole. :thumbs:

Thank you just the same. And I also hold you in high regard.

"That is all!"

 

[Crabtownboy]

So, what is the source of their degree-granting authority? Are these PhDs recognized as comparable to a regionally accredited degree in the USA? Sounds interesting.........

IBTS is accredited through the University of Wales and the degrees are conferred by the University of Wales. IBTS is also accrediated by Czech Ministry of Education to grant a European Union degree.

The degrees are recognized by seminaries in the US as accredited degrees. I have know several graduates who obtained teaching jobs at seminaries in the US.

Lecturers: (Most of these folk travel to Prague for differing lengths of time each year to work with the students. This is not an exhaustive list and is not completely up to date. Other scholars come in for to lecture. Also a growing number of pastors, teachers and scholars are traveling to IBTS on their sabbaticals for personal research, study and writing. )

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[EVChris]

Dear Rhetorician, since you've successfully mentored a student from CES, may I ask you some questions about CES:

1. I thought that the CES model was research based where the mentor and student jointly create the curriculum. But the CES catalog shows actual course titles with course descriptions. Does this mean the mentor and student can only create a syllabus within the constraints of the actual course (as described by the catalog)? Or can they create an entirely new course?

2. I understand that the program pairs a student with one faculty mentor for the duration of the program. But what happens if I need an interdisciplinary approach where I need to research two seemingly unrelated fields and the faculty mentor only has expertise in one of those fields?

3. I notice CES courses are 4 units each. Do you know if CES allows for 3-unit classes instead? That way, a student can explore more topics within the degree program while still fulfilling the 48 total unit requirement? Afterall, 48 still divides evenly by 3.

Thank you.

 

[Rhetorician]

Dear Rhetorician, since you've successfully mentored a student from CES, may I ask you some questions about CES:

1. I thought that the CES model was research based where the mentor and student jointly create the curriculum. But the CES catalog shows actual course titles with course descriptions. Does this mean the mentor and student can only create a syllabus within the constraints of the actual course (as described by the catalog)? Or can they create an entirely new course?

2. I understand that the program pairs a student with one faculty mentor for the duration of the program. But what happens if I need an interdisciplinary approach where I need to research two seemingly unrelated fields and the faculty mentor only has expertise in one of those fields?

3. I notice CES courses are 4 units each. Do you know if CES allows for 3-unit classes instead? That way, a student can explore more topics within the degree program while still fulfilling the 48 total unit requirement? Afterall, 48 still divides evenly by 3.

Thank you.

Dear Bro. EVChris,

Thanks for thinking of me. It has been about 5 years since I mentored anyone for CES. They have "changed hands" and now have a new president. I am sure that much has changed since I mentored last. But I will try to answer as best I can. But I would refer you to the new president to field your questions. They have been very helpful and encouraging in past.

Question 1: The CES model was researched based. The student and mentor hammered out the syllabus that was needed to meet the student's educational and professional goals. Now that being said, I am sure that the stated courses were not the only ones that could be taken. If so that would mitigate against their original philosophy and model of education.

Question 2: You could surely utilize more than one mentor if another discipline needed to be employed. In the past you could even bring your own mentor if someone met the need in your area, say a pastor or local professor. Of course they would have to meet CES's educational standards.

Question 3: I think I remember that all of the course were 4 hours each. But I think I also remember that they could and would allow all work done on a one for one basis. If someone say had 60 hours general electives in a bachelor's degree they would allow that towards their degree completion.

My question to you: Do you need a mentor? I would gladly consider serving as your mentor if my discipline is close to what you want or need? If you will email me your address I will send you a newly updated CV and you can see my credentials.

I hope this helps. But I would get in touch with them directly. Keep in mind I have not done any work with them in a while, so I am likely to be "off the grid!" Get back to me if I can help you.

sdg!

rd

 

[EVChris]

Thank you for your answers. And thank you for offering to consider to be my mentor. Judging from your posts on BB, I'd be honored to be mentored by you. However, I'm afraid I'm too early in the process as I'm only in the exploration stage right now. I'm currently exploring which seminary to apply to.

It's quite overwhelming since I don't have a background in formal ministry and didn't know about all the different reputations of all these seminaries. I've read so many views here on BB and have learned a lot. I think I'll have to rule out the big names (SBTS, DTS, Talbot, etc., etc.) due to cost.

So far, the seminaries below look attractive to me:

Columbia Evangelical Seminary (CES)
-I know they're unaccredited but the possibility to pursue a tailored curriculum is very attractive. I wanted to study the intersection between theology and narrative theory. And there's nowhere else I can go to do that.
-High quality faculty mentors like you sir.
-However, even one of the "stars" of CES, James White, has recently decided he'll pursue a traditional accredited doctorate from South Africa.

Tyndale Theological Seminary and Biblical Institute (TTS/TBI)
-They're also unaccredited but their MABT cost is only $84/unit and could provide a great foundation in theology and biblical studies.

Baptist Missionary Association Theological Seminary (BMATS)
-Accredited by both RA and ATS! And tuition is only $190/unit.
-However, opinion on this BB has been that their history of landmarkism might mar my MAR from them.
-I could take advantage of their non-degree program and just take classes to earn credits for transfer

Since many people have multiple Master's degrees, I suppose I could just get an unaccredited Master's degree, and if I ever decide that I really do want to enter academia, I could get another accredited Master's degree later.

Advice givers on BB often say, "It depends what you plan to do with the degree." I plan to write books and lecture at the popular level,...but I don't want to entirely preclude the opportunity to teach formally.

I'm open to advice.
Thank you.