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Salvation by any other name.....

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Apr 19, 2018.

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  1. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be confusion as to the method of salvation throughout the ages. As mentioned in a recent thread, some seem to believe that believing God is salvation. Some seem to believe that a Messiah will come is sufficient. We (most hereon this site )believe today that one must repent and accept Jesus as Savior.

    There is a problem amidst in OT saints salvation is different. We know there is no favoritism with God and that Jesus is the Only way to salvation, not belief in a future Messiah, not in believing in God,

    1Jo 5:11
    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
    1Jo 5:12
    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
    1Jo 5:13
    These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

    How was Rahab saved?
     
    #1 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  2. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for an interesting post. My understanding about salvation under the Old Covenant is no different from salvation under the New Covenant. Hebrews 11 lists many from the time of Abel who had faith. And salvation was always based on Jesus' atonement, even before accomplished and fully revealed. We wonder how could people appropriate the atonement not knowing about it? But the answer is God appropriated it to all whom he regenerated resulting in their faith. And in the new birth, these recognized YAHWEH (Jesus) at a spiritual level just as Peter did when God revealed Jesus to him as the Messiah.
     
    #2 1689Dave, Apr 19, 2018
  3. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Are you saying God selectively gave Rahab a knowledge of Jesus as the Messiah?
     
    #3 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  4. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Regeneration precedes faith. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. So in this sense, any of the faithful were born again.
     
    #4 1689Dave, Apr 19, 2018
  5. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    What did she have faith in?
     
    #5 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  6. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It would be faith in YAHWEH who is Jesus in the OT. Remember God preached the gospel to Abraham although not in the detail we have it today. And Abraham believed God and He counted it as righteousness to him.
     
    #6 1689Dave, Apr 19, 2018
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  7. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    She

    So all these were saved without Jesus as personal saviour? different than NT,?

    note: Yahweh is not Jesus
     
    #7 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  8. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is the second member of the triune God. He became flesh and dwelt among us. He was always the personal savior of all who believed. Please note how the older manuscripts call Jesus God in the book of Jude.


    "Now I desire to remind you (even though you have been fully informed of these facts once for all) that Jesus, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, later destroyed those who did not believe".

    The NET Bible (Jude 1).

    I have quite a bit to share on why Jesus is God if interest develops.
     
    #8 1689Dave, Apr 19, 2018
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  9. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    no, I would rather hear how Rahab was saved the same a Lydia in Acts

    Act 16:14

    One of them was Lydia from Thyatira, a merchant of expensive purple cloth, who worshiped God. As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying.
     
    #9 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  10. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    It would be the same way. Job, supposedly the oldest book in the bible taught the resurrection from the dead. The primitive gospel preached to Abraham that he received by faith. Lydia and Rahab are no different, each having faith - a fruit of the Holy Spirit. We have the same gospel, only more detailed.
     
    #10 1689Dave, Apr 19, 2018
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  11. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    You are not saved by having faith in God.

    Heb 11:39
    And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    Heb 11:40
    God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    I should have added an example, Every good Rabbi today has faith in God
     
    #11 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  12. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    These verses speak of Abraham not receiving the land promises. But Jesus said: “‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob" He is not the God of the dead but of the living!”When the crowds heard this, they were amazed at his teaching.” (Matthew 22:32–33) (NET)
     
    #12 1689Dave, Apr 19, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2018
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  13. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Who believes that?

    Who believes that?

    So God has more than one plan of salvation?

    Who believes otherwise?

    No, they knew and believed in Yahwah the Messiah (translated: Jesus the Christ).

    As I feared, you don't understand the Gospel.

    Of course Yahwah is Jesus. That is something a child learns in 4th grade Sunday School.

    Isa 40:3 compare Matthew 3:3.

    Isa 40:3 The voice of one who calls out, “Prepare the way of Yahweh in the wilderness! Make a level highway in the desert for our God."

    Mat 3:3 For this (Jesus) is he who was spoken of by Isaiah the prophet, saying, “The voice of one crying in the wilderness, make ready the way of the Lord. Make his paths straight.”

    Those passages prove Jesus is Jehovah (Yahwah).

    Numbers 21:5 The people spoke against God, and against Moses, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread, and there is no water; and our soul loathes this disgusting bread.”
    6 Yahweh sent venomous snakes among the people, and they bit the people. Many people of Israel died.

    1Cor 10:9 Let’s not test Christ, as some of them tested him, and perished by the serpents.

    Again, who did they test in the OT? They tested Christ, and died by snake bite.

    Gen 2:4 This is the history of the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that Yahweh God made the earth and the heavens.

    John 1:3 All things were made by him (Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Yahwah made the earth and the heavens. All things were made by Jesus.

    Jesus IS Yahwah (Jehovah).

    All of this is what I have been trying to tell you over and over and over again in the other thread, but you just fail to understand rather simple bible truths.

    You don't understand the Gospel. You don't understand the Eternal ministry of Christ (Messiah) Jesus (Jehovah/Yahwah).

    And worst, you not only don't understand, you refuse to listen to those who do understand. You think the foolishness taught by your Sunday School teacher is "truth" and the bible and those who understand it, is false.

    I honestly feel sorry for you. It is one thing to be ignorant. We are all ignorant about many things. But it is another thing to willfully remain ignorant and refuse to listen to and believe the truth. Willfully ignorant.

    2 Pet 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of.

    1 Cor 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

    If you are not willing to listen and learn then you are willingly ignorant, and we, who know the Truth of God's word, are to leave you to your ignorance and move on to people who want to listen and learn from God's word.
     
    #13 TCassidy, Apr 19, 2018
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  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    simple, Abraham and the others are living
     
    #14 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  15. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Who do you believe Yahweh is?
     
    #15 Iconoclast, Apr 19, 2018
  16. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    You do not realize the significance of what you post. Your misapplication is due to the inherit humanism that elevate the human condition above the spiritual.

    you suppose things they knew, looking back with scripture complete you realize things they never head of.

    Rahab had no idea of the things you know. She did not now of Messiah before she made a decision to help the spies. She only knew of their success and their God.

    I am not calling you ignorant but has premeditated incomprehension . If you believe as you post you call God a liar having favorites to receive salvation without Jesus or a separate path than you and I.
     
    #16 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  17. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The Godhead, all three. The Lord, of the OT.

    Gen 22 11-15 shows both.
     
    #17 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  18. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Let me go ahead,
    There is only one method of SALVATION,,
    Act 4:12
    Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

    So how did the OT saints enter Heaven without a knowledge of Jesus, simple they DID NOT. Neither did they have a knowledge comparable to our of the Gospel So did God provide a different way to Salvation for them ? NO, It would be in conflict with scripture. We know some we "accounted for righteous" Is this salvation ? Is it the same as ours? NO.

    Did God tell them all about the gospel so they could be saved as we are? NO.

    So they could receive the Gospel , even though already considered righteous and physically dead? Easy

    Jesus preached to them, So they could also believe on the finished work of Jesus. Remember there is no time in Paradise , either, so they just got there even though years apart.

    Accounted for rigorousness in life and in accordance with hearing and believing what Jesus told them , equals salvation and entrance to Heaven,
     
    #18 loDebar, Apr 19, 2018
  19. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    First you said,
    Then you said, when asked "Who is Yahwah" you said:
    And now you say:
    So, if Yahwah is the LORD of the OT, and you admit Yahwah is "The Godhead, all three" but now you are saying that the OT saints did not have knowledge of Jesus, the Second Person of the Godhead which you just said they did know as the LORD of the OT, have you changed your mind again, or do you now deny that Jesus is part of the Godhead? Are you now denying the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ?
     
    #19 TCassidy, Apr 19, 2018
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    ALL who have even been saved was on the basis of the death/resurrection of Jesus Christ on their behalf, as their sin bearer/substitute, and the OT believers had hope in the promised coming Messiah, while we have hope in eh Messiah who has already come.
    The fullness of salvation, though, such as indwelling by the Holy spirit all persons, having direct access to God, were to await the new Covenant itself.
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Apr 19, 2018
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