The Function of the Law in the New Covenant

[TCassidy]

Except the NT Apostles, under inspiration of the Spirit, choose to have us under 9, not 2 of them!

Not so. All of the 10 Commandments are embodied in the Great Commandment, love God, love man.

Commandments 1-4: Love God.

Commandments 5-10: Love man.

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not think you understand. Pharisees obeyed the "Moral Standard of God's Law" with wrong motivation. It's sin to not live out Righteousness.

what standard of morality would qualify as being righteousness though?

 

[Yeshua1]

Not so. All of the 10 Commandments are embodied in the Great Commandment, love God, love man.

Commandments 1-4: Love God.

Commandments 5-10: Love man.

Correct, but the Sabbath Day of Saturday was not brought over, but the principle of a day unto the Lord was ...

 

[JonShaff]

what standard of morality would qualify as being righteousness though?

Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Christ.

Jesus appealed to the scriptures though for the morality standards to adhere with, correct?

 

[Reformed]

I don't believe any denomination has all of the truth. And I see faults in the creeds and theologies I use most. I draw from the Reformed, the Baptists, the Mennonites, and perhaps a few others. Because each comes closer to the truth in different ways.

That explains a lot. Thank you.

 

[Iconoclast]

JonShaff,

I simply believe it's a misnomer to call it a "Moral Law".

You might have those thoughts, but not many share in it. The ten commandments when drawn out provided a complete law code in the theocracy. All ten ...law words were expanded in detail in Deuteronomy.

I agree with most of what this asserts--God's Law reveals His Holy and Righteous Character, It is the basis in which God Established His Covenant with Israelites, etc.

But in terms of Characteristics that we replicate, *Godliness* is more accurate than "morality"

.
You are branching off here....the discussion is concerning...LAW
Both you and Dave are drifting off.

Before I go any further.....let's clarify something...

All the people who lived prior to Moses.....the sinners.....
Did they sin?
What specific laws did they break when they sinned?
At the White Throne judgment......what kind of sins will they be found guilty of?
What boundary did they live under?
What could we call that boundary?
Does God supply a name for this boundary?
What standard are we told the unsaved even do almost by conscience alone?[rom2]

 

[Iconoclast]

"1689Dave,

Before the Ten Commandments, were the Two Great Commandments. God rephrased them under Ten Headings to control the wicked in terms they understood, under threat of death. But the spiritual element in Israel had the Two Great Commandments in their heart, fully realised through a circumcised heart (new birth). And used the Ten Commandments as physical illustrations of spiritual truth. You did not need to tell them not to steal etc., etc.

[/QUOTE]

Dave,
Here are the same questions I posed to JON S....

All the people who lived prior to Moses.....the sinners.....
Did they sin?
What specific laws did they break when they sinned?
At the White Throne judgment......what kind of sins will they be found guilty of?
What boundary did they live under?
What could we call that boundary?
Does God supply a name for this boundary?
What standard are we told the unsaved even do almost by conscience alone?{romans2}

 

[HankD]

Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles forseven days unto the LORD. On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein. Lev 23:2,34-36

And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like unto the feast that is in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing unto the calves that he had made: and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places which he had made. 1 Kings 12:32

I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. Amos 5
I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts. Hosea 2:11

What feast days were despised by God? His or theirs/hers?

He hated the feast days because they did them in vain and were all about them and none of Him.

 

[percho]

The function of the Law in the Old Covenant was the same as the function of the Law in the New Covenant.

In the Old Covenant the Law never saved anyone. It showed the people where they were wrong. This drove them to the sacrifices which were a shadow and type of the Sacrifice of Christ, yet to happen in time, which was their salvation. Then they went right back to the Law for regulation.

In the New Covenant the Law does not save. The Law shows us where we are wrong and drives us to Christ for salvation Who then directs us right back to the Law for regulation.

1 John 1:9 It let's us know what to confess.

 

[Iconoclast]

I would suggest this;ibid
The Moral Law is epitomized in the Decalogue or Ten Commandments, and answers to the law ontologically embedded in man’s nature at creation as the image–bearer of God (Rom. 2:11–16). The Moral Law was neither formulated nor instituted at Sinai; rather, it was codified and epitomized at Sinai in the Decalogue. The Moral Law expresses the moral self–consistency or absolute righteous character of the triune God. The Moral Law was codified as part of the progressively–revealed redemptive purpose (Rom. 5:20–21). [All post–Fall Divine revelation is essentially redemptive in nature]. The Moral Law was revealed to Moses and given to Israel in a codified and epitomized or summary form. Israel, as the covenant people of God, formed the repository of the Divinely revealed and codified Moral Law until the gospel took the true knowledge of God and his moral self–consistency to all the nations of the earth.

 

[JonShaff]

JonShaff,



You might have those thoughts, but not many share in it. The ten commandments when drawn out provided a complete law code in the theocracy. All ten ...law words were expanded in detail in Deuteronomy.



.
You are branching off here....the discussion is concerning...LAW
Both you and Dave are drifting off.

Before I go any further.....let's clarify something...

All the people who lived prior to Moses.....the sinners.....
Did they sin?
What specific laws did they break when they sinned?
At the White Throne judgment......what kind of sins will they be found guilty of?
What boundary did they live under?
What could we call that boundary?
Does God supply a name for this boundary?
What standard are we told the unsaved even do almost by conscience alone?[rom2]

You may have mistaken the intentions of my posts. Law was given to restrict "lawless-ness"--and SHOW God's Holiness. Law does not promote morality--God's Righteous Character does. Do you not agree with that? You can not legislate Morality/Godly Character (whatever term you want to use--so many are hung up on morality--even though the Bible does not speak of Morals).

 

[JonShaff]

From Steven Smith's Book--Recapturing the Voice of God

 

[JonShaff]

Jesus appealed to the scriptures though for the morality standards to adhere with, correct?

Standards of Righteousness.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Thanks for sharing. But the Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant. Since this alone answers everything else you say on this matter, I'll concentrate on this for now.

This is from a Reformed Scholar who proves the Ten Commandments ARE the Old Covenant. Please read carefully, keeping in mind the Ten Commandments HUNG from the Two Great Commandments. These are the commandments that predated the Ten. As I said, something must exists before anything can hang from it.

Well I never heard of Albertus Pieters. He may well be (or have been) a scholar, but I question that he's Reformed if he shares your view.

“And He (God) wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.”
Deuteronomy 4:13:

“And He declared unto you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, even the Ten Commandments.”
Deuteronomy 9:9:

“When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.”
Deuteronomy 9:15:

“So I turned and came down from the mount . . . and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.”

We may learn the same thing by comparison of two passages in the 8th chapter of I Kings. In the 9th verse of that chapter we read the following statement, occurring in the story of the dedication of the temple:

“There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone which Moses put there at Horeb, when Jehovah made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt,”

and in the 21st verse of the same chapter Solomon says:

“And there have I set a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of Jehovah, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt.”
The second of these two texts is repeated in II Chronicles 6:11.

From the above scripture passages we see clearly that while the civil, liturgical and personal regulations rest upon the Sinaitic Covenant, yet they are not the covenant itself: that supreme position belongs to the Ten Commandments. Because they constituted the covenant, therefore the golden casket in which they were deposited was called “The ark of the covenant.” (Numbers 10:33; Jeremiah 3:16, and other places)

We can certainly agree that the Ten Commandments occupy a higher position than the civil and ceremonial laws. I have agued that above. However, the Decalogue and the Sinaitic Covenant are not identical for three reasons:
1. Jeremiah 34:13-14; Ezekiel 44:6-8; Hebrews 9:1 & 9:18 are Biblical commentaries on the Sinaitic Covenant , but clearly identify that covenant with other things than the Decalogue.
2. Jeremiah 31:31ff says that the Ten Commandments will still function in the New Covenant.
3. All the commandments in the Decalogue pre-date that covenant (Exodus 19ff).

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. Genesis 17:1.

2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image. Genesis 35:2.

3. You shall not take God's name in vain. Exodus 5:2.

4. Remember the Sabbath day. Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 16.

5. Honour your Father and Mother. Genesis 9:22; 26:34-35.

6. You shall not kill. Genesis 9:5-6.

7. You shall not commit adultery. Genesis 39:9.

8. You shall not steal. Genesis 31:32.

9. You shall not bear false witness. Genesis 3:4-5.

10. You shall not covet. Genesis 3:6.

Also, I suggest to you that when Adam took the apple, he put Satan's word before that of God, made an idol of his stomach, dishonoured his heavenly Father, coveted that which God had withheld from him and stole it, and killed all his progeny. That's six of the ten Commandments broken 2,500 years before the Sinaitic Covenant.

Let's develop this. I appreciate your challenges and think we can arrive at an agreement.

I hope we can. It's a fascinating subject.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

oh dear brother! May i remind you of what Bro. Paul wrote?
1 Tim. 1
5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. 6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, 10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.

This is an important text which I will try to address shortly (I have three sermons to prepare in a week and a half). Right now I will only say that if the law is not for a righteous man, it certainly is for Paul, since in 1 Timothy 1:15 he describes himself as the chief of sinners. But at least we agree that the law is good.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Martin Marprelate
I've already answered your question--does God expect Christians to "not" live by the Law? God our Father Expects us to Live by the Perfect Law of Liberty, the Law of Christ, The Royal Law--Love--which goes BEYOND the restrictive covenant rules of the OT Decalogue. Maybe i'm not explaining myself well, but How is it that you do not understand that Love Exceeds law????? God just does not say "do not break rules", He says live a love-blessing to those around you as a demonstration of God's love in you.

I don't think we are so very far away in our understanding, but our difference is that I do not see the law as in any way restrictive. I can only suggest that you read Psalm 119 looking for how the psalmist finds the law restrictive. He doesn't!

Paul wrote that the "law" was the Schoolmaster that led people to Grace.

Actually, he didn't say that. He said that the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). I expect you, like me, had schoolmasters whom you respected. When you left school, you didn't (I hope!) instantly forget everything they taught you, but you continued to honour and respect them and remember their teaching. So it is when we have come to Christ. He is the 'end' of the law in the sense that He is the purpose of it and where it was always heading. But now, in Christ, and in the power of the Spirit, we love the law of God. Instead of saying, "This is a hard saying; who can receive it?" We say, "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:3).

Moses Brought the Law but Christ brought Grace...and grace upon Grace.

Amen! But that does not mean that we abandon the law. The law does not condemn the Christian; it guides him (Psalm 119:105).

You are discussing this in a way where it makes it seem I am pitting the NT vs. OT, Law Vs. Love...and that is not so brother!

Well it has rather seemed that way, brother. I'm glad to learn that it isn't the case.

We must understand Law in its proper context as it relates to Redemption and The Work and Person of Christ.

Amen!

 

[Iconoclast]

From Steven Smith's Book--Recapturing the Voice of God

point two on the page on the right is where it goes wrong big time.

 

[1689Dave]

Well I never heard of Albertus Pieters. He may well be (or have been) a scholar, but I question that he's Reformed if he shares your view.

We can certainly agree that the Ten Commandments occupy a higher position than the civil and ceremonial laws. I have agued that above. However, the Decalogue and the Sinaitic Covenant are not identical for three reasons:
1. Jeremiah 34:13-14; Ezekiel 44:6-8; Hebrews 9:1 & 9:18 are Biblical commentaries on the Sinaitic Covenant , but clearly identify that covenant with other things than the Decalogue.
2. Jeremiah 31:31ff says that the Ten Commandments will still function in the New Covenant.
3. All the commandments in the Decalogue pre-date that covenant (Exodus 19ff).

1. You shall have no other gods before Me. Genesis 17:1.

2. You shall not make for yourself a carved image. Genesis 35:2.

3. You shall not take God's name in vain. Exodus 5:2.

4. Remember the Sabbath day. Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 16.

5. Honour your Father and Mother. Genesis 9:22; 26:34-35.

6. You shall not kill. Genesis 9:5-6.

7. You shall not commit adultery. Genesis 39:9.

8. You shall not steal. Genesis 31:32.

9. You shall not bear false witness. Genesis 3:4-5.

10. You shall not covet. Genesis 3:6.

Also, I suggest to you that when Adam took the apple, he put Satan's word before that of God, made an idol of his stomach, dishonoured his heavenly Father, coveted that which God had withheld from him and stole it, and killed all his progeny. That's six of the ten Commandments broken 2,500 years before the Sinaitic Covenant.

I hope we can. It's a fascinating subject.

Thanks Martin for taking time on this. The hierarchy of Law as I understand places the two great commandments on top. These are eternal, written on the hearts of all. But clouded by spiritual death in Adam. In this way, they condemn all of sin. But God circumcised the hearts of all believers of all time making these laws discernable. This would include Abel, Job, Abraham Paul, James etc. And these two commandments Jesus fulfilled on the cross as our representative. It is the love for God and neighbor that led to the crucifixion, and drives Christian ethics according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 13.

God gave the Ten Commandments as a synopsis of the two great commandments at a level the unregenerate could obey. Paul calls them menstealers, disobedient whoremongers and so on. By them, God harnessed their evil promising material gain for obedience and threatening loss, even death for disobedience. These were not good people, but obeyed having ulterior motives. God did not need to tell the born again not to steal, it wasn't in their nature. The civil laws and ceremonies were an inseparable part of this Old Covenant. And served the purpose to control the wicked and to illustrate spiritual truth to the believers.

In fulfilling the two great commandments on the cross, literally loving his Father, and his enemies for whom he died, giving body, soul and strength, Jesus also fulfilled the Ten Commandments. Abolishing them and circumcision. Therefore officially ending the physical State of Israel. And leaving the spiritual in place under Jesus.

Jesus and the NT writers imported some of the moral aspects of the Ten Commandments into the NT, but only as commentary and instruction. And we use it for a guide. But interestingly enough, if we do the exact opposite of what the Ten Commandments forbade, we end up living the love motive found in the two great commandments. Instead of stealing, we give. Instead of killing enemies, we love them etc. But the Old Covenant was the ten commandments and that entire system passed away, being replaced by the new. Had the Ten Commandments continued, the ceremonies and civil laws would too, because you cannot separate them. James and Paul say if you keep one part, you must reject Christ and keep it all.

 

[1689Dave]

Except the NT Apostles, under inspiration of the Spirit, choose to have us under 9, not 2 of them!

Remember, the Ten hung from the Two. The Two preexisted the Ten.

“Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.” (Matthew 22:37–40) (KJV 1900)