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Even the cable companies have fallen prey to Calvinism
- Thread starter Revmitchell
- Start date
I love it!
So Mitchell which one of those pre-selected cable companies do you belong to?... Brother Glen
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Just don't pick the ones that have Benny Hinn , ken Copeland, and their ilk on it!So Mitchell which one of those pre-selected cable companies do you belong to?... Brother Glen
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I have a question if it's OK:
Why is there so much seeming hatred on these forums regarding the subject of God choosing the sinner to salvation? Did I miss something in the fine print that states that one must believe that man's salvation is dependent upon his own efforts to be saved?
I mean, I understand perfectly well why the Roman Catholic Church chose to curse anyone who believes in election and predestination at the Council of Trent in 1563, but Baptists, who have suffered the most in the past 500 years at the hands of those who persecuted them for their doctrines?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the jokes.
Why is there so much seeming hatred on these forums regarding the subject of God choosing the sinner to salvation? Did I miss something in the fine print that states that one must believe that man's salvation is dependent upon his own efforts to be saved?
I mean, I understand perfectly well why the Roman Catholic Church chose to curse anyone who believes in election and predestination at the Council of Trent in 1563, but Baptists, who have suffered the most in the past 500 years at the hands of those who persecuted them for their doctrines?
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the jokes.
You'll have to ask RM regarding his hatred of the Doctrine of Grace.
You are about 30 years late.You forgot PTL!... The Jim and Tammy show!... Brother Glen
Of course no Calvinist agrees with the term "double predestination." There is not much "grace" available to the non elect.
Who says there is hatred?
It's not hatred. It's more like pushback from Non-Cals for the attitude displayed by the more DoG-centric.
Watching channels is a "work" that you must do to receive the pre-selected channels!
Yep kind of like those who try to tie us to Catholics. "oh, I am above the frey, I am just asking a little ole question while leveling and attack against your character."
We here who are Calvinist/Reformed baptists have no problem in what you are posting here, but those who are Free will Grace Baptists would have some trouble with the gist of it.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I understand, and thank you for clarifying.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Sir,
From what I've read, the Roman Catholic Church ( in the Canons of Trent ) and in its Catechism has affirmed free will with respect to salvation and cursed the doctrines of "Calvinism" ( even though it was not known by that label at that time ) and anyone who claimed to be among the "predestinate". Please see the Canons of Trent, Sixth Session, "On Justification" for reference.
It's also been my observation that they teach, as their "core gospel" , that salvation can be gained by an effort or efforts of men, and that they also teach that it can be lost by those same efforts...again, of men. This is mirrored today by what many have labeled as, "Five Point Arminianism", which was not really evident in the "Protestant churches" for perhaps the first 100 years after the start of the Reformation.
Am I tying you to the Roman Catholic Church?
Not that I know of, but I will say this:
One could make the connection, and in my opinion, it wouldn't be all that far to go.
The doctrine of free will that "gets man's foot in the door" of Heaven is the gist of what they teach, while the biblical doctrine of His saints being secure in their gift of eternal life ( God's "keeping their foot in the door" of Heaven ) is what they do not teach.
Doctrinally speaking and knowing a fair bit of the history of the visible "church" ( everyone who professes Christ as Saviour ), I see a slipping over time in the writings of historical individuals ( especially during the "Protestant Reformation", a name I happen to think was coined by the RCC )...from a starting point of: 1) Every facet of salvation is totally by the grace and work of God in a person, to 2) Man somehow co-operating with God in achieving what is clearly stated in Scripture as a gift, not a reward for doing something.
So, in my estimation, a person who espouses free will on the front side and God's will on the back side, should hopefully consider that any argument that "God will not violate a man's free will " is, in their beliefs, actually being contradicted when they state that God keeps a person through faith ( 1 Peter 1:5 ) and will lose none of His sheep ( John 10:28-29 ).
In other words, in "Traditionalism" ( which to me, really wasn't "traditional" in anything outside the Catholic Church until the past 200 to 300 years or so, and in Baptist churches until the last 100 to 150 years, roughly ), man's will is not violated by God to save him, but it IS violated by God to keep him saved.
Overall, an interesting combination...and one I grew up listening to for over 25 years in IFB churches.
<snip irrelevant stuff about the Catholic Church>
This is a frequent strawman argument used by the Calvinists. I don't know anyone, ever, that has said anything like this. One only need to look in the Bible to see examples where God "violates" man's free will. John the Baptist, Mary (Jesus' mother) Saul of Tarsus, etc.
Again, I don't know of anyone that has ever stated that God will not violate man's free will, for salvation, or for anything.
Many who hold to free will salvation will say that God is not a "Cosmic rapist", as he will not force Himself upon anyone!
You do understand the gnostic origins of Calvinsim correct, sir?
I did not know jesus and paul were Gnostics!