Who has the authority to Baptise?

[Alan Gross]

"the church-at-large" isn't something that I have seen in The Bible. Of course, I haven't seen, "I came from a monkey" in the Bible, but a lot of people say that that is something they assume to exist as possible.

What happens if it were possible for them to not assume, in their case, "I came from a monkey"?

Without that assumption, there is nothing to present as evidence. Why? Because it is not possible. God Created the Heaven and Earth and monkeys and you and me.

It is actually, SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to DREAM of 'some evidence' being available, for 'some other theory', to account for our being here. AND THERE IS NONE.

I know what you're thinking when you present this idea, as if it may just appear out of nowhere, however, I HAVE NOT SEEN IT in The Bible. And I might as well say, "you haven't either". There. We agree. There is No Controversy before the court, your honor. ( I'd be nice if we could get along and Preach Jesus is The Savior, wouldn't it?)

The usage of words includes such expressions as, "The husband is the head of the wife", to NOT MEAN 'there is a Giant Husband that is the head of EVERY WIFE THAT EXISTS'.

Drop the 'the' in front of 'husband' and wife' and we may arrive at, 'husbands are the head of the wives'.

Thus, no 'generic' structuring has us looking out for a Giant husband.

'The body', or 'the church' is EXACTLY THE SAME LANGUAGE USAGE.

'Bodies' and 'churches' is expressed, intended, revealed, inspired, interpreted, and may be understood, in each and every Bible usage, WITHOUT EXCEPTION.

I can't personally go from, "However, the church is built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets (Eph. 2:20),"

to:

"so they have passed the mandate of the Great Commission on to the church-at-large."

Specifically, I can't personally go there, because the 'called out assembly' or the 'church'-at-large doesn't happen anywhere, any more than anyone came from a monkey.

They sure 'think' with a sin-cursed, carnal mind, they are 'reasoning with', that THEY DID, though. Ask them on Facebook. They ALL DO, practically.

People need the Lord.

And that's O.K. We're putting Him Out there!!

 

[Alan Gross]

What do you think needs to be reconciled?

"the Great Commission was given, specifically, to the eleven remaining disciples" and they were all dead within the 1st Century.

 

[Reformed]

Matthew 28:16-20, ". . . the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. . . . Jesus came and spake unto them, . . . teach all . . . Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you . . . ."

And context.

It would help if you read all my comments, especially the part where I wrote, "they have passed the mandate of the Great Commission on to the church-at-large."

 

[Squire Robertsson]

As the late Dr. Richard Weeks said, "The ordinances belong to the local church, not in the clergyman's hip pocket."

 

[Reformed]

"the church-at-large" isn't something that I have seen in The Bible.

I used that term to point out the difference between ministers of the Gospel from the rest of the body of Christ when it comes to ecclesiastical duties. We are all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28), although we have different functions (Eph. 4:11-12).

 

[Reformed]

As the late Dr. Richard Weeks said, "The ordinances belong to the local church, not in the clergyman's hip pocket."

But the clergyman is tasked with making sure the ordinances are practiced within the local church and not just by a clergyman, but by all ministers of the Gospel that have pastoral oversight in the local church. Not only are they tasked with making sure the ordinances are practiced, but they are also responsible for making sure they are practiced according to Scripture.

p.s. edited to correct grammar and typos.

 

[Reformed]

Pastors and elders (ministers of the Gospel) are primarily responsible for the ministry of the Word. The ministry of the Word presents itself in varied ways. Preaching, teaching, admonishing, and correction of the local body is something these men should be devoted to. Directing biblical worship is another responsibility. The ordinances are customarily administered and practiced within the confines of local church worship. The local church, through the pastor and elders, has the right to confer authority on an individual for service in the church. That service may include administering one or both of the ordinances. If it is done under the auspices and authority of the local church, it is permissible. This is different than a self-appointed individual acting on their own with no ecclesiastical accountability.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

I believe Dr. Weeks is referring to the practice of some clergy, Protestant and RCC, of carrying the elements with them on pastoral visits.

But the clergyman is tasked with making sure the ordinances are practiced within the local church and not just by a clergyman, but by all ministers of the Gospel that have pastoral oversight in the local church. Not only are they tasked with making sure the ordinances are practiced, but they are also responsible for making sure they are practiced according to Scripture.

p.s. edited to correct grammar and typos.

 

[Alan Gross]

It would help if you read all my comments, especially the part where I wrote, "they have passed the mandate of the Great Commission on to the church-at-large."

O.K. I already replied to that idea. Nothing like that exists or happened. It just misses everything Jesus was Teaching and The Great Commission. Thanks.

 

[Alan Gross]

I used that term to point out the difference between ministers of the Gospel from the rest of the body of Christ when it comes to ecclesiastical duties. We are all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28), although we have different functions (Eph. 4:11-12).

The Galatians were one body.

The Ephesians were one body.

That's Bible.

"the rest of the body of Christ" is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

In the writing and teachings of men, yes.

Totally unscriptural and the reason for not seeing the Words written.

I would like to give folks an opportunity to see what is written.

If The Lord was Pleased for them to see it.

Maybe not.

 

[Reformed]

The Galatians were one body.

The Ephesians were one body.

That's Bible.

"the rest of the body of Christ" is nowhere to be found in Scripture.

In the writing and teachings of men, yes.

Totally unscriptural and the reason for not seeing the Words written.

I would like to give folks an opportunity to see what is written.

If The Lord was Pleased for them to see it.

Maybe not.

Am I to take it then that you do not see specific duties for pastors and elders?

 

[Alan Gross]

"the Great Commission was given, specifically, to the eleven remaining disciples" and they were all dead within the 1st Century.

"Jesus Promised to be with them,

"lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen".

But, they all died.

That's not saying much for Jesus Christ.

 

[Alan Gross]

Am I to take it then that you do not see specific duties for pastors and elders?

The Offices of a paster and an elder are performed in an assembly. The members are all part of an assembly.

The assembly of members who call pastors and elders to perform specific duties of their Offices, along with the pastors and elders, is a body.

The body has Authority.

 

[Reformed]

The Offices of a paster and an elder are performed in an assembly. The members are all part of an assembly.

The assembly of members who call pastors and elders to perform specific duties of their Offices, along with the pastors and elders, is a body.

The body has Authority.

None of that answers my question. Do pastors and elders have specific duties? Maybe I should phrase it better. Do pastors and elders have specific duties within the local church that other members of the local church do not have? If so, what are those duties? If not, why not?

 

[Alan Gross]

None of that answers my question. Do pastors and elders have specific duties? Maybe I should phrase it better. Do pastors and elders have specific duties within the local church that other members of the local church do not have? If so, what are those duties? If not, why not?

Our text and the initial thread question contain the word, 'Power',
Strong's Concordance
exousia: power to act, authority; Strong's Greek: 1849. ἐξουσία (exousia) -- power to act, authority
"(4). the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed (generally translated authority);

a. universally: Matthew 28:18"

Jesus had 'All Power", i.e., 'Authority' in Matthew 28 that He Conveyed to His churches when He Commissioned The church body that He had Organized and then, AUTHORIZED and Commanded HIS CHURCHES to 'Go', 'Preach', 'Disciple', & 'Teach' (comprised, at that moment, of the eleven, who had been Saved and then Baptised into Jesus' Divine church that He 'Built' out of that Scripturally Baptized MATERIAL!)

and Promised He would 'Be with' her, the church He Said He "Built" upon Himself (upon this rock, i.e., Jesus, The Rock of Ages, "I Build My church") until the End of The Age.

Instead of our discussion being
THE ORGANIZATION
of
THE LORD'S CHURCHES

involving the components and differences between

1.) members, when sinners repent towards God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and their immediate duty is to be baptized and enter into the fellowship of the church as a servant of Christ.

and

2.) Officers: When the church is thought of as a working body, the spiritual leader is called BISHOP. When the church is viewed as the Lord's flock, he is called PASTOR, which means shepherd. When it is conceived as a school of God's children, he is called TEACHER. Were the elder of a church is the pastor and bishop and teacher; all referring to the same office involving different duties,


>>> are we talking about the specific "Authority" of the members vs the pastors and elders in
THE GOVERNMENT of THE LORD'S CHURCHES?, which would be No.3, below, of the:


THREE FORMS OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT,
in which

1. The Episcopal form has 'ranks' of ministers in a hierarchy, along with national or provincial organizations, and ... this organization has authority over the local groups

2. The Presbyterian form recognizes two classes of elders-preaching elders and ruling elders. The authority in this form of government is in the "Session" which is composed of the pastor and ruling elders of the local congregation.

or

(Biblical)

3. The Congregational or Democratic form of church government is the Scriptural form. This means that each local congregation or assembly is a little democracy under the rule of Christ. "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Eph. 5:24). It is independent of every other congregation.

..."But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren...Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ" (Matt. 23:8,10).

where..."An absolute monarchy on its Divine side requires for its complement on the human side and absolute democracy.

...
Reference:

There are three forms of church government in existence today among the professed followers of Christ. All groups of professing Christians, that is, all denominations may be, generally speaking, classed under these three forms. They are Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational.

1. The Episcopal form is a graded ministry; a system of big "I,s" and little "U,s." Episcopacy recognizes three orders or ranks of ministers, namely, deacons, priests, and bishops.

The Roman Catholic Church is a world church, recognizing the bishop of Rome as supreme head. The Romanist view is based upon the idea that Christ gave to Peter such authority and that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is the successor of Peter.

The Episcopal form is also represented in national and provincial churches. This means that the members of the church in any province or nation are bound together in

national or provincial organizations, and that this organization has authority over the local groups. This is the form held by: the Episcopal and Methodist denominations

2. The Presbyterian form recognizes two classes of elders-preaching elders and ruling elders. The authority in this form of government is in the "Session" which is composed of the pastor and ruling elders of the local congregation. They transact the business of the church, receiving and dismissing members, etc. An appeal, however, can be made to the Presbytery, and from the Presbytery to the Synod, and from the Synod to the General Assembly.

3. The Congregational or Democratic form of church government is the Scriptural form. This means that each local congregation or assembly is a little democracy under the rule of Christ. "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Eph. 5:24). It is independent of every other congregation. From the divine side, the church of Christ is a monarchy with Christ as its Lord and Head (Eph. 5:24); from its human side it is a democracy, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren...Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ" (Matt. 23:8,10). An absolute monarchy on its Divine side requires for its complement on the human side and absolute democracy.

8. 4 The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.

 

[Reformed]

Our text and the initial thread question contain the word, 'Power',
Strong's Concordance
exousia: power to act, authority; Strong's Greek: 1849. ἐξουσία (exousia) -- power to act, authority
"(4). the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed (generally translated authority);

a. universally: Matthew 28:18"

Jesus had 'All Power", i.e., 'Authority' in Matthew 28 that He Conveyed to His churches when He Commissioned The church body that He had Organized and then, AUTHORIZED and Commanded HIS CHURCHES to 'Go', 'Preach', 'Disciple', & 'Teach' (comprised, at that moment, of the eleven, who had been Saved and then Baptised into Jesus' Divine church that He 'Built' out of that Scripturally Baptized MATERIAL!)

and Promised He would 'Be with' her, the church He Said He "Built" upon Himself (upon this rock, i.e., Jesus, The Rock of Ages, "I Build My church") until the End of The Age.

Instead of our discussion being
THE ORGANIZATION
of
THE LORD'S CHURCHES

involving the components and differences between

1.) members, when sinners repent towards God and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and their immediate duty is to be baptized and enter into the fellowship of the church as a servant of Christ.

and

2.) Officers: When the church is thought of as a working body, the spiritual leader is called BISHOP. When the church is viewed as the Lord's flock, he is called PASTOR, which means shepherd. When it is conceived as a school of God's children, he is called TEACHER. Were the elder of a church is the pastor and bishop and teacher; all referring to the same office involving different duties,


>>> are we talking about the specific "Authority" of the members vs the pastors and elders in
THE GOVERNMENT of THE LORD'S CHURCHES?, which would be No.3, below, of the:


THREE FORMS OF CHURCH GOVERNMENT,
in which

1. The Episcopal form has 'ranks' of ministers in a hierarchy, along with national or provincial organizations, and ... this organization has authority over the local groups

2. The Presbyterian form recognizes two classes of elders-preaching elders and ruling elders. The authority in this form of government is in the "Session" which is composed of the pastor and ruling elders of the local congregation.

or

(Biblical)

3. The Congregational or Democratic form of church government is the Scriptural form. This means that each local congregation or assembly is a little democracy under the rule of Christ. "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Eph. 5:24). It is independent of every other congregation.

..."But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren...Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ" (Matt. 23:8,10).

where..."An absolute monarchy on its Divine side requires for its complement on the human side and absolute democracy.

...
Reference:

There are three forms of church government in existence today among the professed followers of Christ. All groups of professing Christians, that is, all denominations may be, generally speaking, classed under these three forms. They are Episcopal, Presbyterian, and Congregational.

1. The Episcopal form is a graded ministry; a system of big "I,s" and little "U,s." Episcopacy recognizes three orders or ranks of ministers, namely, deacons, priests, and bishops.

The Roman Catholic Church is a world church, recognizing the bishop of Rome as supreme head. The Romanist view is based upon the idea that Christ gave to Peter such authority and that the Bishop of Rome (the Pope) is the successor of Peter.

The Episcopal form is also represented in national and provincial churches. This means that the members of the church in any province or nation are bound together in

national or provincial organizations, and that this organization has authority over the local groups. This is the form held by: the Episcopal and Methodist denominations

2. The Presbyterian form recognizes two classes of elders-preaching elders and ruling elders. The authority in this form of government is in the "Session" which is composed of the pastor and ruling elders of the local congregation. They transact the business of the church, receiving and dismissing members, etc. An appeal, however, can be made to the Presbytery, and from the Presbytery to the Synod, and from the Synod to the General Assembly.

3. The Congregational or Democratic form of church government is the Scriptural form. This means that each local congregation or assembly is a little democracy under the rule of Christ. "Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything" (Eph. 5:24). It is independent of every other congregation. From the divine side, the church of Christ is a monarchy with Christ as its Lord and Head (Eph. 5:24); from its human side it is a democracy, "But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren...Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ" (Matt. 23:8,10). An absolute monarchy on its Divine side requires for its complement on the human side and absolute democracy.

8. 4 The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.

OK. It is obvious you like to complicate the obvious and do not intend on a straight answer.

Farewell.

 

[Reformed]

I believe Dr. Weeks is referring to the practice of some clergy, Protestant and RCC, of carrying the elements with them on pastoral visits.

I learned something new. I did not know much about Dr. Weeks.

 

[Tom Bryant]

In our church, it is given to the church to authorize someone to baptize.
It was usually me, but sometimes we voted to allow a dad to baptize their child.

 

[37818]

"the Great Commission was given, specifically, to the eleven remaining disciples" and they were all dead within the 1st Century.

That is why God gave us the New Testament Scriptures. Those writings are our authority in all matters of our Christian faith and practice.

 

[37818]

It would help if you read all my comments, especially the part where I wrote, "they have passed the mandate of the Great Commission on to the church-at-large."

Yes, and you also argued this:
". . . approved by leadership and given the authority to baptize. . . . ." So I requoted from Matthew 28:16-20, ". . . Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. . . ."