Yes, as you baptized off their derived authority!
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Who has the authority to Baptise?
- Thread starter Mikey
- Start date
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
"Even if one does not agree with him on that point, one can hold that baptism is an ordinance of the local church": Without the Authority of God, yes.
Since they would be departing from the Divinely Created ekklesia that is clearly defined by Scripture, whether civil or Divine. They would Simply be a religious society.
Church GOVERNMENT is not the Design of man, who thoroughly corrupted and perverted the Landmark set by Jesus Christ and The New Testament when Constantine 'married' the 'church' (as they supposed it to be) and the state.
'Man' 'marrying' ekklesia to other Greek words needed to define man-made organizational hierarchies perverts The Lord's churches that Jesus Founded, by dispensing and delegating the Scriptural Position of Jesus Christ as The Head of the church to another.
'Authority' is the question "if one does not agree with him on that point" and No Authority of God is the answer.
Then in the pursuit of man-made 'Authority', as far as that question, "who by human Authority has Authority", as an individual to Baptise is immaterial to the subject of The Bible, or God.
A church either has The Authority of God to Baptise and authorize an individual with the testimony of having been Given The Grace to Repent of their sins and Trust Jesus Christ as their Saviour, to BE BAPTISED by an individual performing the Baptism, REGARDLESS OF WHO THAT INSIGNIFICANT INDIVIDUAL MAY BE performing the Baptism.
The church either has The Authority of God or not.
A church with The Authority of God votes to authorize a person wishing to join the Lord's church, based upon their testimony of Having BEEN SAVED.
NO PERSON ADMINISTRATING THE ACT OF BAPTISM HAS ANY 'AUTHORITY', or ROLE REGARDING 'AUTHORITY', apart from HAVING ONE VOTE to authorize a person wishing to join the Lord's church, based upon their testimony of Having BEEN SAVED and the PERSON ADMINISTRATING THE ACT OF BAPTISM BEING ENTRUSTED and APPOINTED by THE CHURCH BODY to be the Baptizer.
For what it's worth here's the definition of NT church Dr. Weeks gave in Baptist Polity class:
An organized, autonomous band of immersed Believers having NT officers, observing NT Ordinances, and actively carrying out the Great Commission.
He is excluding a large number that Jesus see being in his true Church! Such as all reformed!
Dr. Weeks held to a "local church" only interpretation of ekklesia. He did not hold that improper ecclesiology necessarily impacted soteriology. He did hold that all saved persons are Sons of God hence members of God's family.
So he would hold to saved Reformed being in the Body, but that their local churches were not real ones?
Mind you I'm coming at this based on my memory from classes held forty years ago. IIRC, he used the term churches out of order. Dr. Weeks made no bones about being a Baptist. For him, the Reformed actions towards Baptists in the 17th through the 19th Centuries was still current events.
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
1 Corinthians 12:12-27 King James Version (KJV)
12 For as the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular)
is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular)
is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now
hath God set the members every one of them in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body (reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular).
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body (reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular) together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular);
but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular, i.e., Each body of Christ is a body with members in particular).
The seven churches of Revelation are seven bodies.
Each of those seven has their Pastor in The Hand of Jesus.
Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars
which thou sawest in My right hand,
and the seven golden lampstands {candlesticks}.
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches;
and the seven lampstands {candlesticks}
which thou sawest are the seven churches.
"The mystery of the seven stars
which thou sawest in My right hand...
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches"
'Beginning' at 'Reformed' pushes the idea of New Testament Realities to be initiated by Martin Luther and continued by Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin and other Protestant Reformers in 16th-century Europe, without a recognition of Foundational Teachings which Originated during The First Advent of Jesus.
I left that as a 'statement' and in the event, it is applicable to anyone, then it is just a statement. If it is not applicable to anyone categorized as 'Reformed', it is just a statement.
1 Corinthians 12:27 defines 'the body', as "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular".
'The body' is that. With members in particular.
'The Lampstands' are churches. With members in particular.
Jesus has those Pastors of those churches in His Hand
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
as it hath pleased him.
When Jesus is The Head of the body and members in particular, it is because The Soveirgn God of The Universe Put Him there ( as 1 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God," says in Ephesians 1:22 "And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is His body,..."
(reiterating I Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
18 But now
hath God set the members every one of them in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular).
Each of The Lord's churches is 'the body' of Christ, in and of themselves, self-constituted with Jesus as their Head,
and members in particular
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
Squire Robertsson, says "He did hold that all saved persons are Sons of God hence members of God's family" and by "family", he means "family", God's Family, i.e., children of God, whether or not they are a member of one of The Lord's churches, as opposed to
ONE OF: Each of The Lord's churches WHICH is 'the body' of Christ, in and of themselves, self-constituted with Jesus as their Head,
and members in particular.
Churches of Jesus Christ are Spoken of as 'churches' as in Revelation, not 'The Church'.
There is no 'The Church', or 'the body', that ever speaks of any 'collective group of congregations, AND NEVER unassociated children of God who are Saved and not members of ONE OF THE LORD'S CHURCHES unless it is
ONE OF: Each of The Lord's churches WHICH is 'the body' of Christ, in and of themselves, self-constituted with Jesus as their Head,
and members in particular.
12 For as the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular)
is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular)
is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now
hath God set the members every one of them in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body (reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular).
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
23 And those members of the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body (reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular) together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.
25 That there should be no schism in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular);
but that the members should have the same care one for another.
26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular, i.e., Each body of Christ is a body with members in particular).
The seven churches of Revelation are seven bodies.
Each of those seven has their Pastor in The Hand of Jesus.
Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars
which thou sawest in My right hand,
and the seven golden lampstands {candlesticks}.
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches;
and the seven lampstands {candlesticks}
which thou sawest are the seven churches.
"The mystery of the seven stars
which thou sawest in My right hand...
The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches"
'Beginning' at 'Reformed' pushes the idea of New Testament Realities to be initiated by Martin Luther and continued by Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin and other Protestant Reformers in 16th-century Europe, without a recognition of Foundational Teachings which Originated during The First Advent of Jesus.
I left that as a 'statement' and in the event, it is applicable to anyone, then it is just a statement. If it is not applicable to anyone categorized as 'Reformed', it is just a statement.
1 Corinthians 12:27 defines 'the body', as "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular".
'The body' is that. With members in particular.
'The Lampstands' are churches. With members in particular.
Jesus has those Pastors of those churches in His Hand
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
as it hath pleased him.
When Jesus is The Head of the body and members in particular, it is because The Soveirgn God of The Universe Put Him there ( as 1 "Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God," says in Ephesians 1:22 "And hath put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is His body,..."
(reiterating I Corinthians 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
18 But now
hath God set the members every one of them in the body
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular).
Each of The Lord's churches is 'the body' of Christ, in and of themselves, self-constituted with Jesus as their Head,
and members in particular
(reiterating 27 Now ye are the body of Christ,
and members in particular),
Squire Robertsson, says "He did hold that all saved persons are Sons of God hence members of God's family" and by "family", he means "family", God's Family, i.e., children of God, whether or not they are a member of one of The Lord's churches, as opposed to
ONE OF: Each of The Lord's churches WHICH is 'the body' of Christ, in and of themselves, self-constituted with Jesus as their Head,
and members in particular.
Churches of Jesus Christ are Spoken of as 'churches' as in Revelation, not 'The Church'.
There is no 'The Church', or 'the body', that ever speaks of any 'collective group of congregations, AND NEVER unassociated children of God who are Saved and not members of ONE OF THE LORD'S CHURCHES unless it is
ONE OF: Each of The Lord's churches WHICH is 'the body' of Christ, in and of themselves, self-constituted with Jesus as their Head,
and members in particular.
If say 100 Christians assembled to praise and worship Jesus, hear the teaching of the Bible, is that not the gathering of the local church, regardless if reformed, Baptist labels on the doorway?
Are they an organized band of immersed Believers, practicing NT ordinances (Immersion of a Believer and the Lord's Table), and actively carrying out the Great Commission? Your definition would include fellowship gatherings, Christian camps, Bible College chapel services, etc. Dr. Weeks' definition would include Baptists who use the descriptive Reformed and the Baptistic Bible Churches. It would exclude those of the Scottish, Dutch, and English Reformed traditions. I don't think there are many German, Swiss or French Reformed churches in the US.
Wouldn't Jesus see them as being part of His body, so why would they not be a church gathering?
Dr. Weeks (like others) held to a local church only interpretation ekklesia. On the face of it, your gathering is not organized, does not have NT officers (sorry I forgot this clause), is not observing the NT Ordinances, and is not fully carrying out the Great Commission. Your gathering may be many positive things but a gathering of a local church it isn't.
Would the pastor and teachers of a non Baptist church be seen as being "duly authorized" by God to perform their tasks then?
Are you speaking of a Baptistic Bible Church? It's not a matter of being duly authorized by God. It's a matter of being duly authorized by their congregation.
What I am asking was if a non Baptist did immersion baptism for some reason on someone, would that be seen as being legit if they wanted to join a Baptist church now?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
re:
Whether one is ever Spiritually lead by the Lord God to See Jesus' churches, and Stand for them, and Love The Kind of churches Jesus Loved and also Gave His Life for, as His New Divinely Instituted Organization to be His Witness and to whom the Oracles of God have been Entrusted for them to 'Contend for the Faith Once Delivered to The Saints', until He Comes Again* is between God and them.
The Definition of the Church JESUS BUILT
8. 1: The Definition of the Church JESUS BUILT - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
The ORGANIZATION of The Churches Jesus Built.
8. 2 The ORGANIZATION of The Churches Jesus Built. - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built
8. 4 The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
HISTORY RECORDS a "TRAIL of BLOOD", as SPIRITUAL WARFARE left BAPTIST Children of God, Martyred.
8. 5 HISTORY RECORDS a "TRAIL of BLOOD", as SPIRITUAL WARFARE left BAPTIST Children of God, Martyred. - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
Tracing Jesus' Churches in Baptist History's Invisible Spiritual War will record Visible Martyrs
8. 5.1: Tracing Jesus' Churches in Baptist History's Invisible Spiritual War will record Visible Martyrs - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
*
TEN BIBLE PROOFS
OF BAPTIST PERPETUITY
by Rosco Brong, Late Dean
Lexington Baptist College
Lexington, KY
“The church
of the Living God,
the Pillar
and Ground of the Truth”
I Timothy 3:15
...
Recorded history often reveals
more of historians’ prejudices than of actual events,
and the history of Christianity has been written
mostly by the enemies of Baptists.
...
Even so, there is historical evidence
for the continued existence of
what would now be called Baptist churches
from the days when
Jesus was on Earth in the flesh
down to the present time.
...
This evidence is not beyond dispute
but it is more than sufficient
if we are willing to believe
The Promises of God’s Word.
...
My purpose here is to show from the Bible,
APART FROM ALL
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE,
that we must believe in
THE CHURCHES of THE GODHEAD BODILY
ORGANIZED by JESUS CHRIST
DURING HIS EARTHLY MINISTRY
as ASSEMBLIES of BAPTIZED BELIEVERS
by THE AUTHORITY of GOD.
8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
Whether one is ever Spiritually lead by the Lord God to See Jesus' churches, and Stand for them, and Love The Kind of churches Jesus Loved and also Gave His Life for, as His New Divinely Instituted Organization to be His Witness and to whom the Oracles of God have been Entrusted for them to 'Contend for the Faith Once Delivered to The Saints', until He Comes Again* is between God and them.
The Definition of the Church JESUS BUILT
8. 1: The Definition of the Church JESUS BUILT - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
The ORGANIZATION of The Churches Jesus Built.
8. 2 The ORGANIZATION of The Churches Jesus Built. - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built
8. 4 The GOVERNMENT of The Churches Jesus Built - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
HISTORY RECORDS a "TRAIL of BLOOD", as SPIRITUAL WARFARE left BAPTIST Children of God, Martyred.
8. 5 HISTORY RECORDS a "TRAIL of BLOOD", as SPIRITUAL WARFARE left BAPTIST Children of God, Martyred. - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
Tracing Jesus' Churches in Baptist History's Invisible Spiritual War will record Visible Martyrs
8. 5.1: Tracing Jesus' Churches in Baptist History's Invisible Spiritual War will record Visible Martyrs - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
*
TEN BIBLE PROOFS
OF BAPTIST PERPETUITY
by Rosco Brong, Late Dean
Lexington Baptist College
Lexington, KY
“The church
of the Living God,
the Pillar
and Ground of the Truth”
I Timothy 3:15
...
Recorded history often reveals
more of historians’ prejudices than of actual events,
and the history of Christianity has been written
mostly by the enemies of Baptists.
...
Even so, there is historical evidence
for the continued existence of
what would now be called Baptist churches
from the days when
Jesus was on Earth in the flesh
down to the present time.
...
This evidence is not beyond dispute
but it is more than sufficient
if we are willing to believe
The Promises of God’s Word.
...
My purpose here is to show from the Bible,
APART FROM ALL
HISTORICAL EVIDENCE,
that we must believe in
THE CHURCHES of THE GODHEAD BODILY
ORGANIZED by JESUS CHRIST
DURING HIS EARTHLY MINISTRY
as ASSEMBLIES of BAPTIZED BELIEVERS
by THE AUTHORITY of GOD.
8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.
We must also recognize that there is the one true Church of Jesus that has within it Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Charismatics, yes even Catholics, who have been saved by Grace of God and washed by the blood of the Lamb!
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
((( sorry to interrupt>> oop, bup, bing, bang,...excuse me, you all... "that's where the claim 'Re-Baptisers" came from, by mostly Baptist's enemies"...)))) ((( and to the point of Squire over and over, it's not the physical practitioner that has any 'power', or 'authority'; it could be Judas "doing the Baptising.." anyway, pardon me, I was just on here and had had an energy drink)))
If a non Baptist Reformed minister did the believers baptism, would that be legit?
Alan Gross
Well-Known Member
Nope. No such animal. Nothing exists like that from a Biblical standpoint.
"Called Out Assembly is never given this notion, in civil gatherings or social or Spiritual. The word 'church' in your statement is an Unscriptural Misuse of the word 'church' and simply has no application to the way you are using it.
The denial of The Lord's churches is made into a different definition than the Bible ever gives, by adding the word 'church' to the concept where 'Kingdom of God' is the Bible teaching.
.." there is the one true 'Kingdom of God' that has within it Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Charismatics, yes even Catholics, who have been saved by Grace of God and washed by the blood of the Lamb!" is a Biblical concept and does not deny The Lord's churches and rob Jesus of His Bride.