Is divorce a theological issue

[Salty]

From a thread in the General Bapt discussion

Thank you, brother Vaughn.

As you have said, I am seeking a church, not a debate. I agree with you that if people want to discuss the divorce and remarriage issue (which is an extremely important issue) in depth, a separate thread would be appropriate. I would be willing to participate in this as time permits, but I know from experience that this subject can attract contentious arguments if not handled in a Christ-like manner. I think that there would need to be a commitment on the part of those involved to maintain a godly, courteous attitude.

Thanks!

So is divorce a theological issue
Is divorce the unpardonable sin
Does divorce and re-marriage keep a man from every being a pastor, deacon, teacher - ect
May a man be a pastor if he is divorced, but not re-married?
Should a church ask about a prospective church member if he is divorced?
What leadership positions may a divorced (re-married or not) person hold in a church.
Is an annulment the same as a divorce for this purpose?
If your church has a strict policy on divorce, then later a pastor wants to loosen it some - what would you do?

any other points to bring up?

Do not feel obligated to answer all questions

But please - do respect Pastor Bruce final sentence in the quote above.

 

[Mikey]

So is divorce a theological issue: Yes.

Is divorce the unpardonable sin: No

Does divorce and re-marriage keep a man from every being a pastor, deacon, teacher - ect: No. However further information to understand exact reasons.

May a man be a pastor if he is divorced, but not re-married?: Possible yes, Ned more information as to the circumstances on when and why.

Should a church ask about a prospective church member if he is divorced?: No.

What leadership positions may a divorced (re-married or not) person hold in a church. Any, again it depends on the circumstances

Is an annulment the same as a divorce for this purpose?: Yes

If your church has a strict policy on divorce, then later a pastor wants to loosen it some - what would you do?: Again depends on what the policy was and how intends to loosen it.

* Information required would be; did he get divorced before he turned to Christ? What was the cause of the divorce- Abuse, Adultery, etc

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Does divorce and re-marriage keep a man from every being a pastor, deacon, teacher - ect
May a man be a pastor if he is divorced, but not re-married?

I feel that we make a serious error when we distill the qualifications for a pastor down to whether or not he has been divorced. I know men who have never been divorced but are still not scripturally qualified to pastor a church.

 

[TCassidy]

So is divorce a theological issue: Yes.

Is divorce the unpardonable sin: No.

Does divorce and re-marriage keep a man from every being a pastor, - yes - deacon, - yes - teacher - no.

May a man be a pastor if he is divorced, but not re-married?: no.

Should a church ask about a prospective church member if he is divorced?: No.

What leadership positions may a divorced (re-married or not) person hold in a church. None.

Is an annulment the same as a divorce for this purpose?: No.

If your church has a strict policy on divorce, then later a pastor wants to loosen it some - what would you do? Stand by my convictions.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Is an annulment the same as a divorce for this purpose?: No.

Can you expound on this?

 

[TCassidy]

Can you expound on this?

A divorce means there was a valid marriage which was subsequently dissolved.

An annulment is the court ruling there never was a valid marriage.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

A divorce means there was a valid marriage which was subsequently dissolved.

An annulment is the court ruling there never was a valid marriage.

Yes, sir, I realize the legal distinctions. However, if vows were exchanged and the marriage consummated, wouldn't annulment be "man putting asunder what God has put together"? (Matthew 19:6)

 

[Mikey]

Yes, sir, I realize the legal distinctions. However, if vows were exchanged and the marriage consummated, wouldn't annulment be "man putting asunder what God has put together"? (Matthew 19:6)

would you argue that a marriage has to be consummated for it be legitimate?

 

[Pastor_Bob]

would you argue that a marriage has to be consummated for it be legitimate?

No, sir. I would not argue that point. I added that because there may be some who would make that argument.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Yes, sir, I realize the legal distinctions. However, if vows were exchanged and the marriage consummated, wouldn't annulment be "man putting asunder what God has put together"? (Matthew 19:6)

If one party were already married, or if one party were a member of the opposite sex to what he/she.it was purporting to be, those would be cases for annulment (for a church at any rate!). It would be clear that God had not joined them together.

 

[TCassidy]

Yes, sir, I realize the legal distinctions. However, if vows were exchanged and the marriage consummated, wouldn't annulment be "man putting asunder what God has put together"? (Matthew 19:6)

There was no marriage to consummate. It never existed. An annulment requires proof of fraudulent intent on the part of one of the people. God does not "put together" fraud.

 

[Yeshua1]

So is divorce a theological issue: Yes.

Is divorce the unpardonable sin: No

Does divorce and re-marriage keep a man from every being a pastor, deacon, teacher - ect: No. However further information to understand exact reasons.

May a man be a pastor if he is divorced, but not re-married?: Possible yes, Ned more information as to the circumstances on when and why.

Should a church ask about a prospective church member if he is divorced?: No.

What leadership positions may a divorced (re-married or not) person hold in a church. Any, again it depends on the circumstances

Is an annulment the same as a divorce for this purpose?: Yes

If your church has a strict policy on divorce, then later a pastor wants to loosen it some - what would you do?: Again depends on what the policy was and how intends to loosen it.

* Information required would be; did he get divorced before he turned to Christ? What was the cause of the divorce- Abuse, Adultery, etc

Does the blood of Christ have the power to cleanse and restore even a divorce not scripturally? Yes, but both parties in the new marriage must agree with God was sin, and that they need to have God restore and bless this new union this time for life

Can a person be an elder/pastor if divorced, and if remarried? Yes, if this was done per scripturally grounds, as in the case of unconfessed/unrepented adultery of the spouse

Should 2 true Christians, both walking in the Spirit and seeking the will of God ever divorce each other? No

 

[agedman]

The Lord Jesus Christ allowed for a single timeline occasion for divorce. That was BETWEEN the taking of the vows and the consummation (taking the bride into the prepared home to become one flesh).

To understand this, one needs to understand that the marriage vows are not made to each other but to God. And then God puts together, not before the vows, not during the vows but after the vows as the two become one.

That is the standard of Christ, not mine, and not easy for the modern man who has been enamored by the less than honest preaching/teaching on the subject will agree.

But most cannot (as neither did the Jews) sustain such a standard, so Moses permitted divorce. It was not such from the beginning, but a legal maneuver injected by Moses. Christ makes no such allowance.

Far too many believers expect all rights and privileges to be automatically restored when they sin, or they engage in sinful behavior.

That is not a given attribute in the cleansing and forgiveness. There are certain qualifications that if violated will never allow that privilege. They are really common sense regulations. unfortunately, the modern man has little in the way of common sense.

 

[Yeshua1]

The Lord Jesus Christ allowed for a single timeline occasion for divorce. That was BETWEEN the taking of the vows and the consummation (taking the bride into the prepared home to become one flesh).

To understand this, one needs to understand that the marriage vows are not made to each other but to God. And then God puts together, not before the vows, not during the vows but after the vows as the two become one.

That is the standard of Christ, not mine, and not easy for the modern man who has been enamored by the less than honest preaching/teaching on the subject will agree.

But most cannot (as neither did the Jews) sustain such a standard, so Moses permitted divorce. It was not such from the beginning, but a legal maneuver injected by Moses. Christ makes no such allowance.

Far too many believers expect all rights and privileges to be automatically restored when they sin, or they engage in sinful behavior.

That is not a given attribute in the cleansing and forgiveness. There are certain qualifications that if violated will never allow that privilege. They are really common sense regulations. unfortunately, the modern man has little in the way of common sense.

Jesus allowed for adultery and/or other sexual sins to break the Covenant relationship in the eyes of God though...

 

[agedman]

Jesus allowed for adultery and/or other sexual sins to break the Covenant relationship in the eyes of God though...

Not certain that thinking conforms to Romans 8.

Besides, there is no "if/then" statement in the vows.

I promised to love, honor ... no matter what until death parted.

There was no statement included that said, "unless this occurs."

The vows made to God have no prenuptial clauses.

 

[TCassidy]

Far too many believers expect all rights and privileges to be automatically restored when they sin, or they engage in sinful behavior.

This is a hard truth that few Christians are able to accept or understand.

I had a friend about 50 years ago who was a high school football star. He was offered a full ride scholarship to a well known University if he would play football for them. He agree.

That night he celebrated by going out and getting drunk and plowing his motorcycle into a guardrail. They had to amputate his right leg just below the hip. His aunt's pastor came to visit him and he was saved.

But a funny thing. He still only had one leg. Just before time to start school in the fall he got a letter informing him his scholarship was canceled. Can't play football on only one leg.

Sin still has consequences. The saved smoker will die from lung cancer just like the unsaved smoker.

The saved drunk driver will die when he hits that tree just like the unsaved drunk driver.

Sin has a price. Very often a very high price. Read about how God stopped by friend Tim Lee from running from God.

Wounded warrior and LU board member Tim Lee shares his powerful testimony | Liberty University

 

[agedman]

This is a hard truth that few Christians are able to accept or understand.

I had a friend about 50 years ago who was a high school football star. He was offered a full ride scholarship to a well known University if he would play football for them. He agree.

That night he celebrated by going out and getting drunk and plowing his motorcycle into a guardrail. They had to amputate his right leg just below the hip. His aunt's pastor came to visit him and he was saved.

But a funny thing. He still only had one leg. Just before time to start school in the fall he got a letter informing him his scholarship was canceled. Can't play football on only one leg.

Sin still has consequences. The saved smoker will die from lung cancer just like the unsaved smoker.

The saved drunk driver will die when he hits that tree just like the unsaved drunk driver.

Sin has a price. Very often a very high price. Read about how God stopped by friend Tim Lee from running from God.

Wounded warrior and LU board member Tim Lee shares his powerful testimony | Liberty University

Known Tim Lee from the late 70's.

Those who have not read or heard him have missed a blessing.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I think we must be very careful of laying heavy burdens on people. There is no sin that the blood of the Lord Jesus cannot wash away (1 John 1:9).
If a Pastor has a divorce, even if he is the innocent party, I think it will be very difficult for him to continue. How can he counsel couples when his own marriage has failed?
But the 'ordinary' Christian, if his/her spouse has committed adultery, is entitled to divorce him/her and re-marry (Matthew 19:9). If the spouse refuses to live with him/her because he/she has become a Christian, then the Christian is 'not bound' in such cases (1 Corinthians 7:15) and is therefore able to re-marry without sin.
If a couple divorce in other circumstances, they must be stripped of church membership in the hope that they will repent and be restored. If one repents, but the other refuses to be reconciled, what then? To demand of that person that he live the remainder of his life in celibacy is imposing a burden that he may well not be able to bear (Matthew 19:11-12). If he/she is genuinely repentant and has tried to be reconciled only to be rebuffed, then I believe he should be allowed to re-marry and be restored to church membership. Otherwise the church may be pushing him into sin.

 

[agedman]

I think we must be very careful of laying heavy burdens on people. There is no sin that the blood of the Lord Jesus cannot wash away (1 John 1:9).
If a Pastor has a divorce, even if he is the innocent party, I think it will be very difficult for him to continue. How can he counsel couples when his own marriage has failed?
But the 'ordinary' Christian, if his/her spouse has committed adultery, is entitled to divorce him/her and re-marry (Matthew 19:9). If the spouse refuses to live with him/her because he/she has become a Christian, then the Christian is 'not bound' in such cases (1 Corinthians 7:15) and is therefore able to re-marry without sin.
If a couple divorce in other circumstances, they must be stripped of church membership in the hope that they will repent and be restored. If one repents, but the other refuses to be reconciled, what then? To demand of that person that he live the remainder of his life in celibacy is imposing a burden that he may well not be able to bear (Matthew 19:11-12). If he/she is genuinely repentant and has tried to be reconciled only to be rebuffed, then I believe he should be allowed to re-marry and be restored to church membership. Otherwise the church may be pushing him into sin.

You extend Matthew 19 as Moses would, but not as Christ stated were the parameters should be.

7They said to Him, “Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?” 8He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
​

Because the "adultery clause" can ONLY occur prior to "one flesh" in which God has joined together and "let no one put asunder" then it cannot be that divorce is righteous after God has put them together.

Even IF I allowed for your thinking, it is still a violation of Scripture principles when the Scriptures state, Mark 10: “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery.”

There is no get out of obligations free card when it comes to marriage.

Paul deals with this same problem when concerning those who one is converted and the other decides to leave. There is no unshackling from the marriage.

 

[rlvaughn]

A divorce means there was a valid marriage which was subsequently dissolved.

An annulment is the court ruling there never was a valid marriage.

Yes, sir, I realize the legal distinctions. However, if vows were exchanged and the marriage consummated, wouldn't annulment be "man putting asunder what God has put together"? (Matthew 19:6)

Under what is required for annulment under our Texas law would all mean to me that a valid marriage never took place. I'm not sure I would stipulate to that under all state laws. For example, our neighboring state to the east allows an annulment for any marriage that is conducted without a marriage ceremony. Now if I were to see specific cases I might understand this better and agree, but on the surface of the bare statement I cannot agree. I believe a couple can enter into a covenant before God with no ceremony at all.