Is A Silent Church Complicit In The War Crimes of Its State?

[Zog Has-fallen]

Is a silent church complicit in the war crimes of its State? Or is there safety in encasing oneself in an impenetrable shell of willful ignorance, as many Seventh-day Adventists believe?

 

[canadyjd]

The purpose of the church is to worship God in Spirit and truth and to train the fellowship in righteousness toward God, each other and the world in general. The church is not responsible for the actions of the state.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

George Bush is a professing Christian that is thought of as a darling by most evangelicals. Progressives propose compelling arguments proving Presidents George H. W. Bush and Bush the Younger are war criminals. There is also evidence that Presidents Obama and Trump are professing Christians that are also war criminals. What then is the responsibility of Christians toward suspected war criminals in the Church?

 

[canadyjd]

I haven't seen compelling evidence that any of the folks listed are war criminals. However, former Senator and Secretary of State J*hn K*rry confessed before Congress in the early 1970's that he had personally committed "war crimes and autrocities" during the Veitnam War.

I don't see the church having any role in this (politics) besides individual Christian's being informed and voting their conscience.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

George Bush is a professing Christian that is thought of as a darling by most evangelicals. Progressives propose compelling arguments proving Presidents George H. W. Bush and Bush the Younger are war criminals. There is also evidence that Presidents Obama and Trump are professing Christians that are also war criminals. What then is the responsibility of Christians toward suspected war criminals in the Church?

Did God say they are Christians? It is clear that the Word through scripture reveals what being Christian is. It would seem wolves in sheep's clothing (use of titles and name Christian) are not it. Christians are about the matters of Christ's kingdom. To the increase of His kingdom there shall be no end. Men's kingdoms shall decrease but His is an eternal one.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

I don't see the church having any role in this (politics) besides individual Christian's being informed and voting their conscience.

Since Paul's instructions to the church nowhere explicitly prohibits Christians from fraternizing with mass murderers that profess to be Christ's followers, then I suppose you believe that kind of friendship is acceptable.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

I haven't seen compelling evidence that any of the folks listed are war criminals.

And I'm confident that the hierarchy of the Seventh-day Adventist church has a similar answer and sees nothing positive to be gained by testing dissidents and exercising discernment.

 

[canadyjd]

Since Paul's instructions to the church nowhere explicitly prohibits Christians from fraternizing with mass murderers that profess to be Christ's followers, then I suppose you believe that kind of friendship is acceptable.

1 Corinthians 5:9-13
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”


And I'm confident that the hierarchy of the Seventh-day Adventist church has a similar answer and sees nothing positive to be gained by testing dissidents and exercising discernment.

Well, since Paul was a murderer of Christians before God intervened in his life, I suspect the Christians in those churches he founded started off "fraternizing" with a murderer.

I find it interesting that you would not welcome the Apostle Paul into fellowship. Your discernment might not be as good as you think.

As far as the I Cor. passage, you left off the verse that said, "and such were some of you". Paul clearly says people change in Christ. Though you may have been a murderer or engaged in other repulsive behavior, you are a new person in Christ and deserve fellowship.

Peace to you

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

I find it interesting that you would not welcome the Apostle Paul into fellowship.

There's a big difference between the unrepentant Saul and the repentant Paul. The Apostle Paul confessed his errors and had a believable conversion experience. Can that be said of any post World War II President?

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

Paul clearly says people change in Christ.

George H. W. Bush is infamous for declaring that he would never apologize for any of the crimes of the United States of America and openly confessed that he didn't care what the facts are.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

I haven't seen compelling evidence that any of the folks listed are war criminals.

How is the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses and the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis not a war crime?

 

[canadyjd]

There's a big difference between the unrepentant Saul and the repentant Paul. The Apostle Paul confessed his errors and had a believable conversion experience. Can that be said of any post World War II President?

I can't see into a person to know whether Holy Spirit indwells or not.

 

[canadyjd]

How is the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses and the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis not a war crime?

The church should focus on the things of God. You are obviously very passionate about this particular political issue. I don't think you are looking at it in an objective manner.

The issue of just war theory or whether Christians should be involved in military services has been debated since the 1st century. We won't solve it here.

Calling deceased ex-presidents war criminals and murderers won't move the debate forward.

Thanks for the conversation.

Peace to you

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

The church should focus on the things of God.

Then you agree that praising war criminals is not of God.

For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Seventh-day Adventist leadership, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

The issue of just war theory or whether Christians should be involved in military services ...

How is the invasion of Iraq under false pretenses and the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis a just war?

 

[FaithAndWorks]

Unto Us a Child is Born Isaiah 9:5-7
…5(For every trampling boot of battle and every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire). 6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the( government) will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of His government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish and sustain it with justice and righteousness from that time and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of Hosts will accomplish this.…

I am not a SDM but I can not argue against what is truth "I will not apologize for the gospel for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ". His kingdom should be the ONLY thing believers profess. The government is upon His shoulders, it is the cross that all TRUE Christians are crucified by. The governments of men are evil, hypocritical and even if a good be done an evil is done along side that. Lukewarmness is spewed out by the Lord. To the increase of Christ government there will be no end, but man's is coming to an end. Men's GOVERNMENTS put crosses on men. Crosses too heavy to carry that good men have to help.

 

[FaithAndWorks]

I can't see into a person to know whether Holy Spirit indwells or not.

A Father's Instruction Proverbs 4:22-24
…22For they are life to those who find them, and health to the whole body. 23Guard your heart with all diligence, for from it flow springs of life. 24Put away deception from your mouth; keep your lips from perverse speech.…

We know a person by their actions, deeds, works. What people do reflects what is or is not in them.

 

[robycop3]

George Bush is a professing Christian that is thought of as a darling by most evangelicals. Progressives propose compelling arguments proving Presidents George H. W. Bush and Bush the Younger are war criminals. There is also evidence that Presidents Obama and Trump are professing Christians that are also war criminals. What then is the responsibility of Christians toward suspected war criminals in the Church?

War criminals are determined in the eye of the beholder, usually the winning side. For example, had the Axis won WW2, General LeMay woulda been executed as a war criminal by Japan for ordering the fire bombing of Tokyo, which killed more civilians than either nuke did. But, since they lost, General, then PM Tojo was executed as a war criminal, when actually he didn't go outside Japan's fighting tradition. Same for the Nazis. had they won, they woulds executed Ike, Churchill, De Gaulle, etc. as war criminals.

In ancient times, there was no "declaring war." An army simply attacked whom they considered the enemy, or a people they wanted to conquer with no warning, if possible, and one side often killed all the enemy, including anyone they believed could help the enemy. And almost always, the loser's leaders & often their families, were slain.

Of course, what Iraquis that still regard Saddam as a hero call Bush a war criminal. But they lost; big deal!

(I believe GOD caused the USA to attack Saddam's regime cuz he was trying to rebuild Babylon, something God said would never happen. One of his "Babylonian" buildings was used for artillery practice by UN forces.)

What matters is if these people are criminals in GOD'S sight.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

"I will not apologize for the gospel for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ". His kingdom should be the ONLY thing believers profess.

Seventh-day Millerites are Christians. We profess confidence in a revelation from God the Father, given to the Son, and subsequently transmitted to the Apostle John. The revelation contains indispensable, salvific information on the endtime war between the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness, which is relevant now. All the issues in that conflict, known as The Three Angels' Messages Versus The Three Demons' Messages, are relevant now.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

I believe GOD caused the USA to attack Saddam's regime cuz he was trying to rebuild Babylon, something God said would never happen.

I see your point. Trying to rebuild a few "Babylonian" structures does merit the murder of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

 

[Zog Has-fallen]

We know a person by their actions, deeds, works. What people do reflects what is or is not in them.

OK. Let's test the truthfulness of Julian Assange and the recent release of WikiLeaks discussed here:

Has there ever been a time when Julian Assange and/or WikiLeaks disseminated false or misleading information?