Spurgeon On Calvinism Definite Atonement

[MB]

Hi David;
All my answers will be in blue.

Radical Depravity

1. John 6:44 - No man can come to me unless drawn by the Father.
I do not disagree John 12 32 says why since Christ was lifted up on the cross he will draw all men to Him
2. John 6:65 - He reiterates the point. Nobody is coming to him unless drawn by the Father.
As I said before I do not disagree.
3. John 8:47 - Unless you are of God, you cannot hear the words of God.
I disagree:Act 28::28
None of what you mentioned speaks about total depravity.
Sovereign Election
There is no such thing there is election but it is not Sovereign, God is not Sovereign. He is God All Mighty.Nothing is impossible with God. The word Sovereign does not appear in scripture
1. John 6:37, 39 - All that the Father gives to the son will come to the son.
I agree
2. John 10:1-9 - His sheep hear his voice. Those who are not his sheep do not hear.
I agree although His sheep are saved before they became His sheep and I am talking about His voice not His word.
3. John 13:18 - I know who I have chosen, I am not speaking to all of you
This verse is Christ speaking to the disciples not to anyone else
4. John 17:2 - Christ has the authority to give eternal life only to those the Father gave to him.
True
5. John 17:9 - I do not pray for the whole world, only for those you have given to me.
True
Definite Atonement
I believe this is called limited atonement
John 10:11 - The Shepherd lays his life down for the sheep, not the whole world.
True
John 17:2, 9, 19, 24 - He only has the authority to give eternal life to those the Father gave him. He does not pray for the whole world but the ones the Father gave to him.
True but not about limited Atonement

Irresistible Call

1. John 6:37 - All the Father gives the Son will come to Him.
2. John 10 - The sheep follow the shepherd, the will not follow the voice of a stranger.
Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones to death those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! You see men can and do reject Christ
The Jews rejected Christ
Preserving Grace

1. John 3:15 - He who believes has eternal life.
2. John 3:16 - Those that believe will never perish.
3. John 5:24 - Those that believe will not come unto judgement.
4. John 6:39-40 - Christ will not lose one that has been given to Him.
5. John 10:27-29 Nobody can snatch them out of His hands.

These verses are all true but they do not pertain to perseverance of the saints Actually these insure that once we believe we are saved and will be forever I'm sorry but you haven't proven Calvinism to be true Don't be discouraged. I'm sure you believe in Christ but you do need to study scripture. Are you sure your a Calvinist.
MB

 

[MB]

MY answers are in blue

Radical Depravity

1. John 6:44 - No man can come to me unless drawn by the Father. True
2. John 6:65 - He reiterates the point. Nobody is coming to him unless drawn by the Father.True
3. John 8:47 - Unless you are of God, you cannot hear the words of God.Not true Act28:28

Sovereign Election

1. John 6:37, 39 - All that the Father gives to the son will come to the son.True
2. John 10:1-9 - His sheep hear his voice. Those who are not his sheep do not hear. Have you heard His voice?
3. John 13:18 - I know who I have chosen, I am not speaking to all of you. Of course not He was speaking with His disciples
4. John 17:2 - Christ has the authority to give eternal life only to those the Father gave to him.True
5. John 17:9 - I do not pray for the whole world, only for those you have given to me.True

Definite Atonement

John 10:11 - The Shepherd lays his life down for the sheep, not the whole world. Not true He died for the sins of the world Jn. 3:16
John 17:2, 9, 19, 24 - He only has the authority to give eternal life to those the Father gave him.True
He does not pray for the whole world but the ones the Father gave to him.True


Irresistible Call

1. John 6:37 - All the Father gives the Son will come to Him.True
2. John 10 - The sheep follow the shepherd, the will not follow the voice of a stranger.True but what has this to do with


Preserving Grace

1. John 3:15 - He who believes has eternal life.
2. John 3:16 - Those that believe will never perish.
3. John 5:24 - Those that believe will not come unto judgement.
4. John 6:39-40 - Christ will not lose one that has been given to Him.
5. John 10:27-29 Nobody can snatch them out of His hands
ALL true but has nothing to do with perseverance.
MB

 

[Ran the Man]

Radical Depravity

1. John 6:44 - No man can come to me unless drawn by the Father.
2. John 6:65 - He reiterates the point. Nobody is coming to him unless drawn by the Father.
3. John 8:47 - Unless you are of God, you cannot hear the words of God.

Sovereign Election

1. John 6:37, 39 - All that the Father gives to the son will come to the son.
2. John 10:1-9 - His sheep hear his voice. Those who are not his sheep do not hear.
3. John 13:18 - I know who I have chosen, I am not speaking to all of you.
4. John 17:2 - Christ has the authority to give eternal life only to those the Father gave to him.
5. John 17:9 - I do not pray for the whole world, only for those you have given to me.

Definite Atonement

John 10:11 - The Shepherd lays his life down for the sheep, not the whole world.
John 17:2, 9, 19, 24 - He only has the authority to give eternal life to those the Father gave him. He does not pray for the whole world but the ones the Father gave to him.


Irresistible Call

1. John 6:37 - All the Father gives the Son will come to Him.
2. John 10 - The sheep follow the shepherd, the will not follow the voice of a stranger.


Preserving Grace

1. John 3:15 - He who believes has eternal life.
2. John 3:16 - Those that believe will never perish.
3. John 5:24 - Those that believe will not come unto judgement.
4. John 6:39-40 - Christ will not lose one that has been given to Him.
5. John 10:27-29 Nobody can snatch them out of His hands.

His disciples. The 12.

 

[Ran the Man]

Hi David;
All my answers will be in blue.

These verses are all true but they do not pertain to perseverance of the saints Actually these insure that once we believe we are saved and will be forever I'm sorry but you haven't proven Calvinism to be true Don't be discouraged. I'm sure you believe in Christ but you do need to study scripture. Are you sure your a Calvinist.
MB

John 10:11 does not end with "not for the world."

 

[Reformed1689]

Hi David;
All my answers will be in blue.

These verses are all true but they do not pertain to perseverance of the saints Actually these insure that once we believe we are saved and will be forever I'm sorry but you haven't proven Calvinism to be true Don't be discouraged. I'm sure you believe in Christ but you do need to study scripture. Are you sure your a Calvinist.
MB

Unfortunately that means I can't quote your answers since you didn't make a separate post. But that being said I will try to address them.

Acts 28:28 has nothing to do with what we are talking about with regard to John and what it means to be of God. Of God is talking about the elect so please show how Acts 28 is relevant to the discussion from your point of view.

God is not sovereign? You have left orthodox Christianity.

The John 13 verse, yes, he is speaking to the 12. But not all of the 12 are chosen. That is a principle that is not just shown with the 12 but throughout Scripture and applies to all.

Please explain, in your view, how John 17 does not show limited atonement.

In your last statement, you say that the verses do not show preserving grace. Then you explain that they, in fact, do show preserving grace. Do you know what preserving grace even means? It means eternal security.

MY answers are in blue

See above

John 10:11 does not end with "not for the world."

I never said that it did.

 

[MB]

Unfortunately that means I can't quote your answers since you didn't make a separate post. But that being said I will try to address them.

Acts 28:28 has nothing to do with what we are talking about with regard to John and what it means to be of God. Of God is talking about the elect so please show how Acts 28 is relevant to the discussion from your point of view.

Let's be honest. You must not be to familiar with what you claim you believe. Total depravity is not supported by the verses you presented
God is not sovereign? You have left orthodox Christianity.

I have never been a calvinist and Calvinism is not orthodox which is why I argue against it.

The John 13 verse, yes, he is speaking to the 12. But not all of the 12 are chosen. That is a principle that is not just shown with the 12 but throughout Scripture and applies to all.

Your wrong All of the twelve were chosen.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "I chose you, the Twelve, didn't I? Yet one of you is a devil."
Joh 6:71 Now he was speaking about Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, because this man was going to betray him, even though he was one of the Twelve.

Please explain, in your view, how John 17 does not show limited atonement.
these verses do not say anything about total depravity. How else can I say it.
It's obvious to me you haven't even read them or you would not have claimed they did

In your last statement, you say that the verses do not show preserving grace. Then you explain that they, in fact, do show preserving grace. Do you know what preserving grace even means? It means eternal security.

You do not seem to understand what perseverance of the saints is. To persevere means to stay faithful
it is not eternal security. I believe in eternal security but I do not believe we have to work to keep it
Rom 4:5 However, to someone who does not work, but simply believes in the one who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness.
See above

I never said that it did.

Yes you did.
John 10:11 - The Shepherd lays his life down for the sheep, not the whole world.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Let's be honest. You must not be to familiar with what you claim you believe. Total depravity is not supported by the verses you presented
God is not sovereign? You have left orthodox Christianity.

I have never been a calvinist and Calvinism is not orthodox which is why I argue against it.


Your wrong All of the twelve were chosen.
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, "I chose you, the Twelve, didn't I? Yet one of you is a devil."
Joh 6:71 Now he was speaking about Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, because this man was going to betray him, even though he was one of the Twelve.

I think what you have shown is that you don't actually know what Calvinism is or what it teaches. That is very evident from your rebuttals. You don't understand any of the five points.

 

[MB]

I think what you have shown is that you don't actually know what Calvinism is or what it teaches. That is very evident from your rebuttals. You don't understand any of the five points.

I didn't expect that you don't even know the tulip. For your education.
Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).



Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

Does this describe Calvinism?
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

I didn't expect that you don't even know the tulip. For your education.
Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).



Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

Does this describe Calvinism?
MB

I didn't say you couldn't copy and paste, I said you don't understand it. I can copy and paste quantum physics but that doesn't mean I understand it.

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't expect that you don't even know the tulip. For your education.
Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).



Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

Does this describe Calvinism?
MB

it describes the truth that is repeatedly taught in the Scriptures.

 

[The Biblicist]

I didn't expect that you don't even know the tulip. For your education.
Total Depravity:

Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).



Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement:
Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace:
When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints:
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

Does this describe Calvinism?
MB

Are you the same poster that posted that incredibly ridiculous video on John 6:44?

 

[MB]

I did not post any videos. But since you brought it up Jn. 6:44 does not in any way support Calvinism.
MB

 

[tyndale1946]

it describes the truth that is repeatedly taught in the Scriptures.

If one was not Totally Depraved an there was some intrinsic goodness in man then why would he need a Savior?... The only righteous man in the following scriptures is Jesus Christ!... Brother Glen

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

5:11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

 

[Reformed1689]

I did not post any videos. But since you brought it up Jn. 6:44 does not in any way support Calvinism.
MB

John 6:44 shows Radical Depravity (we can't choose unless called), Sovereign Election (Those who will be saved will be called, drawn) Irresistible Grace (Christ will raise up those who are drawn) and Preserving Grace (He will raise those up, it's a done deal)

 

[MB]

I didn't say you couldn't copy and paste, I said you don't understand it. I can copy and paste quantum physics but that doesn't mean I understand it.

I understand it and is why I do not believe in it. You are unable to support it with scripture and that is causing you to attack me personally and not my doctrine by insinuating that I do not understand something so simple. No sir your personal attack does not win debates. Only what is scriptural is all that is important. The doctrines of Calvinism are not supported by scripture.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

I understand it and is why I do not believe in it. You are unable to support it with scripture and that is causing you to attack me personally and not my doctrine by insinuating that I do not understand something so simple. No sir your personal attack does not win debates. Only what is scriptural is all that is important. The doctrines of Calvinism are not supported by scripture.
MB

I am not attacking your personally. I attacked your posts which show you do not understand calvinism. I have more than supported it with Scripture, you tried to refute, and I showed you to be in error on your refutation. You then attack me saying I don't know what I believe. I have given plenty of Scriptural support none of which you have actually refuted with any measure of success.

 

[MB]

John 6:44 shows Radical Depravity (we can't choose unless called),

Take a good look at it; We are not called to Salvation we are drawn,
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus says:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
It is Jesus Christ that saves us.Although Christ and God are the same God

Sovereign Election (Those who will be saved will be called, drawn)

Show me where scripture says Sovereign Election. There simply is no such thing in scripture. That means it's the idea of man, not God Yes there is election but we are chosen apart from the Jews unless of course you are Jewish. There is not one Gentile in scripture that is ever called elect.

Irresistible Grace (Christ will raise up those who are drawn)

Wrong. Irresistible grace means man has no choice in his own Salvation, which is not scriptural.

and Preserving Grace (He will raise those up, it's a done deal)

The two words Persevering grace in English is saying "work Grace" Calvinism is so messed up that it cannot even name their doctrines properly. The very name means something else according to you.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Take a good look at it; We are not called to Salvation we are drawn,
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jesus says:
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
It is Jesus Christ that saves us.Although Christ and God are the same God

What in the world do you think draw means?

Show me where scripture says Sovereign Election. There simply is no such thing in scripture. That means it's the idea of man, not God Yes there is election but we are chosen apart from the Jews unless of course you are Jewish. There is not one Gentile in scripture that is ever called elect

Logical error. Trinity isn't in the Bible either but I assume you believe there is a Trinity, yes?

The two words Persevering grace in English is saying "work Grace" Calvinism is so messed up that it cannot even name their doctrines properly. The very name means something else according to you.
MB

Cannot name their doctrines properly? Means something else according to me? Preserving grace means work grace? How do you figure that?

 

[MB]

I am not attacking your personally. I attacked your posts which show you do not understand calvinism.

This sentence make no sense. How can an attack from you tell you anything about me.

I have more than supported it with Scripture, you tried to refute, and I showed you to be in error on your refutation.
[/QUOTE}
Before you pat your self on the back. You have not proved any doctrine at all Your just making false claims of victory of refuting.

You then attack me saying I don't know what I believe. I have given plenty of Scriptural support none of which you have actually refuted with any measure of success.

I haven't had to. You have disproved Calvinism your self by presenting scripture that does not pertain to what you have claimed. None of it supports Calvinism.
You failed to show where the word Sovereign is found in scripture.
Total depravity is being so sinful that a man cannot respond to the gospel

Unconditional election Is being elected unconditionally. Calvinism adds to this by claiming individual election. It cannot be individual with out making God a respecter of persons. Because by it being individual means God passed over others to elect the individual. God does not respect men.

Limited Atonement Means that Christ died for only some. Which again shows favoritism The Bible says
Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This means everyone can be saved if they believe in Christ.
Irresistible grace teaches that the elect will be saved whether they like it or want it. This is fatalism What will be will be. This is not true because God wants all of us to LOVE him and we cannot do that with out a choice to do so. We cannot be made to Love God we have to choose to do this.
Perseverance of the saints isn't needed because all the perseverance does not keep us saved. We are all sealed by the Holy Spirit and nothing can snatches us out of God's hand
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God was not angry with mankind.

I think you'll find He was. 'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men.......' (Romans 1:18).

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God did not give His Son for everyone; He gave Him for the 'whosoevers.'