37818
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. Unless one chnages one's mind to believe from what was not already believed, one does not believe. Biblical repentence is changing one's mind from nonbelief to belief.
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The Conundrom.
- Thread starter 37818
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1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Would you try to climb a ladder you didn't think was there?
Actually, that is more of a definition of faith than repentance. Repentance is expressing contrition and penitence for sin. It does involve changing one's mind and life direction. One could say that soteriologically speaking, repentance and faith are opposite ends of the same coin. The always go together but they are in themselves separate.
37818
Well-Known Member
UnBiblical Roman Catholic heresy.
No, what you are describing is remorse.
Repentance, as used in the Bible literally means a change of mind, specifically regarding the Messiah. At first the term was expressly aimed at the Jews--they needed to repent of their unbelief that Jesus was not the Messiah (Acts 5:31, Acts 13:23-24). Later, after the gospel was given to the Gentiles they too, were required to repent (Acts 11:28)
There is nothing Roman about it. I think you better do some homework.
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Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
I think you are confusing penitence with penance.
Gup20
Active Member
The adoption brings righteousness. First, our spirit is made righteous, but not our bodies. Our bodies are made righteous after the resurrection. Rom 8:23 says our bodies anxiously await the adoption our spirit has already experienced.
[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.
Rom 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:10
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
The scripture gives the sequence... we hear the gospel of truth, we believe it, then we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit as a seal of the righteousness of faith we had. This is spiritual circumcision.
[Rom 4:9-13 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Remember, Deuteronomy 30 says we are not incapable of hearing, and we are capable of making the choice for salvation and that choice is not made by God in heaven.
[Deu 30:11-15 NASB] 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
[Rom 10:6-10 NASB] 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
[Rom 10:6-10 NASB] 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
37818
Well-Known Member
And the Greek translated repentence meaning to change one's mind or view, depending on which word, never means pentence. Show me otherwise from the word of God.
37818
Well-Known Member
The adoption is yet future, it is the bodily resurrection of the body of Christ, the church, ". . . waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. . . ."-- Romans 8:23. ". . . now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; . . ." -- 1 John 3:2.
Yes, it is usually a component of repentance but it is NOT repentance.
37818
Well-Known Member
The adoption brings immortality (again Romans 8:23; 1 John 3:2; 1 Corinthians 15:53).
God HAS to give to His own the spiritual means to be able to heed the voice of Christ first!
Gup20
Active Member
Romans 8:10 (NASB) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
Romans 7:22-25 (NASB) 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.
Romans 4:10-12 (NASB) 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
We know that Abraham was made righteous in spirit prior to being circumcised (about a decade before Isaac was born), so we know the spirit is a righteous inner man while the body doesn’t get the full inheritance until the resurrection. This makes sense with Ephesians:
Ephesians 1:13-14 (NASB) 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.
The Holy Spirit in us if life & righteousness. He is given AFTER we believe, He does not cause us to believe. He is a seal of the righteousness we obtain through faith by grace... just as circumcision was the seal of the righteousness given to Abraham. It is a pledge of the full inheritance yet to come - the resurrection of the body. Circumcision is a type & shadow of the Holy Spirit in us. The outer flesh is separated from the inner man. This is what Hebrews talks about:
Hebrews 4:12 (NASB) For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Romans 8 says, in essence our sin is banished from our spirit at the indwelling & exiled to our flesh. Our flesh dies in its sin to fulfill the law:
Romans 8:3-4 (NASB) 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Consider; this is how death is destroyed... by our spirit being made alive by Christ’s righteousness (inherited through our kinship with Abraham because of having the same faith in the gospel that he did), but our body dies for sin, we have fulfilled the law. I suggest there are 2 ways to fulfill the law - keep it and live or break it and pay the consequence of death. Our bodies fulfill the law & die, but our spirit which is alive in Christ survives the death of the body. Once the body dies we are freed from the law, having fulfilled it.
Romans 7:1-4 (NASB) 1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
So at the resurrection we get new, immortal bodies which can never again be subject to the law, sin, and death.
Gup20
Active Member
This exact notion is refuted by Deuteronomy 30:
Deuteronomy 30:1 (NASB) "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deuteronomy 30:6 (NASB) "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
Deuteronomy 30:11-15 (NASB) 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;
Deuteronomy 30:19 (NASB) "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,
Life & death is a choice God sets before us, not a choice He makes for us in heaven. He says it is not too difficult for us, and we are capable of making the choice.
Note it specifically says we don’t need any means from God to be able to hear His call.... that man is capable on his own of making the choice.
Before you deny that Deuteronomy 30 is speaking about salvation by faith, note that Paul specifically says that Deuteronomy 30 is about the righteousness of faith:
Romans 10:5-13 (NASB) 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
37818
Well-Known Member
What did you refute?
Gup20
Active Member
The notion that God HAS to give to His own the spiritual means to be able to heed the voice of Christ first.
Scripture says here that God gives man the choice of Salvation and it is man which chooses for himself life or death ... that it is a choice God sets before man, not a choice God makes for him in heaven. Further that we are fully capable of hearing the call, we don’t need help from God to heed the call to salvation.
Yet further still that salvation is synergistic because Deuteronomy 30:19 says “I call heaven & earth to testify (to bear witness) to your choice... just as Romans 8 says the Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit (heaven & earth, just as in Deuteronomy) that we are children of God & heirs of the righteousness given to Abraham.
Pennance means a feeling or display of sorrow or regret. Repentance is an act. James shows the difference well, I think. But we could also reference Paul's explanation of sorrow and a Godly sorrow over sin.
On another note, I don't know why it occurred but I've appreciated the tone of disagreement here. It's actually been nice to read the dialogue and see the differences of opinion. The appropriate question is being asked ("why") without charges being levied. This is a topic that normally devolves into uncivil and anti-Christian hostility long before the fifth page.
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