Featured Thread Continuation from "What Is Heresy"

David Taylor...meet RM.lol

 

As you all have stated, we have a difference of opinion, for and against Calvinism. God is the only one who truly knows, so go out and share the gospel, go soul-winning! If you use Calvinism as a reason to not tell the lost about Jesus and His salvation, and it matters not to me what you think. Jesus commanded His church to go and tell. Matthew 28:18-20. That is not just His disciples, it is to His church, He said that He would be with us until the end of the world/age. His church, always with us, until we are with Him!

 

John, I personally do not know any Baptist Calvinists who refuse to share the Gospel because of their Calvinism. I am sure if we do enough digging we will find a few, just as we will find a few Arminians who also refuse to share the Gospel. As a Calvinist I believe the Gospel is the means of salvation, so I am to proclaim it boldly.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

So is this an accurate, full TULIP, Calvinist paraphrase of John 3:16?

For God so loved the [elect] that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever [was lovingly foreknown from the foundation of the world and thereby most assuredly] believeth in him should not perish [with those who God created, but for his mysterious glory chose to condemn for eternity before they were born] but have everlasting life.

(Not trying to be sarcastic. I chose each word carefully, and want to understand where if anywhere, this is a misrepresentation of the Calvinist view.)

 

The Calvinists I know are active in visiting nursing homes, prisons, abortion mills, etc.
When you know that God has people worldwide every person becomes an opportunity for the gospel to be presented.

 

TurnTheTide1611,

No...

For God so loved the world

That The Son, He gave

 

Since you changed my paraphrase of "God so loved the elect" back to God so loved the world, then I assume you mean that the world is a different set of people than the elect, correct? So then the world includes more than just the elect, right?

So God loved the world so much, that he created some of them with a total inability to believe the gospel. And because of their total inability to believe the gospel, they have no escape, but instead "they are left to act in their sin," which makes their condemnation just.

Is this a caricature? Or an accurate statement of Calvinism?

Maybe the problem is not my characterization of Calvinism, but the doctrine itself.

Or is it that "God's ways are higher then my ways" and I just don't yet see the wondrous beauty in creating men inside a burning building full of sin, and ultimately letting them burn in eternity because they didn't escape the sin from which there was no escape?

 

1 John 1:15. 'Do not love the world.' Kosmos here means sinners. 'For everything in the world -- the cravings of sinful man

Hello TTT1611. Welcome to the Baptist Board.
I will answer yours if you will answer mine.
Is this an accurate, fair, full Arminian paraphrase of John 6:39?

'This is the [provisional] will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me [the whole human race], I should lose much, and raise the remainder at the last day.'

 

Hello Martin. I am happy to be here on the Baptist Board.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

I'm not really sure how an Arminian interprets that passage, as this is not a commonly brought up by them as the last clause is problematic for them. They would probably have the last clause being conditional on enduring to the end or something (which Calvinists usually do too - they just say if you don't endure to the end, you must have never been saved to begin with.)

I'm not an Arminian. I have seen some of them get the first part of the verse right, though.

Here's my paraphrase of John 6:39

John 6:39 And this is the Father's [absolute, unchangeable] will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me [every single saved by grace through faith alone believer (who had not known Jesus in the flesh yet)] I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [every single one of them - eternal security]

The idea is that the ones given by the Father to Christ were already believers saved by grace through faith alone. I believe everyone who ever lived that was saved, was saved by grace through faith alone, and had eternal security. These old testament believers didn't believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of one who didn't die yet, but nevertheless they were just as saved as we are today. Someone who was already saved by grace through their faith in God, would most assuredly believe on Jesus when he made himself manifest on earth.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

Coming is equivalent to believing in this context
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John 6:44-45 No man can come to me [believe on me], except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me [believe on me].

Those that hath heard, and hath learned of the father (i.e. they are already believers on the Father) will certainly believe on Christ as well.

And when the Lord said, "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..." he wasn't telling the murmuring unbelievers that they couldn't be saved because they weren't elect. He was telling them they are not true believers in God and that is why they are not receiving Christ

Instead of telling them they have a total, eternally decreed, inability to ever be saved, we find the Lord continually inviting them to believe on him, and thus have everlasting life.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any [any of those he is talking to, given by the father or not, unbelievers, etc.] man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world [not only the "elect"].

 

Excellent! It will be good if you do a short post on the Introduction Forum giving a short bio.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Here's my paraphrase of John 6:39

John 6:39 And this is the Father's [absolute, unchangeable] will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me [every single saved by grace through faith alone believer (who had not known Jesus in the flesh yet)] I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. [every single one of them - eternal security]

The idea is that the ones given by the Father to Christ were already believers saved by grace through faith alone. I believe everyone who ever lived that was saved, was saved by grace through faith alone, and had eternal security. These old testament believers didn't believe in the death, burial, and resurrection of one who didn't die yet, but nevertheless they were just as saved as we are today. Someone who was already saved by grace through their faith in God, would most assuredly believe on Jesus when he made himself manifest on earth.
[/QUOTE]
I'm struggling to understand what you're saying here. Do you believe that people are given to Christ after they are saved? I don't think that works because 'has given Me' is in the Perfect Tense (one-off completed action in the past) and 'will come' is in the future. Do you also believe that John 6:39 only applies to Old Testament believers and has no relevance to Christians today?

Where does the text say anything about people being 'true believers'? Isn't it better just to read the text the way the Holy Spirit wrote it? But the text also says nothing about 'election' as such. It simply says that people can't come to Christ unless God opens their hearts to do so. We find this in practice in Acts 16:14. And the reason they can't is not that God forbids them, but because they have wicked unbelieving hearts (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Indeed so. Anyone who comes to Christ in true repentance and faith will be saved and will have eternal life. Please do not imagine that any Calvinist supposes that someone might genuinely believe on Christ and be told, "You're not one of the elect; salvation's not for the likes of you!" Or "Sorry! The grace has run out; there isn't enough of the blood of Christ left to save you!" God forbid! 'Everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved' (Joel 2:32).

But 'unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.' People will not come to Christ of their own free will because their will leads them to reject Him. 'And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil' (John 3:19).

Now since you (sort of) answered my question, I will answer yours.

No it is not. 'This is how God loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him should have eternal life.' The Greek word houto, does not mean 'soooooooo much' but 'thus.' Kosmos here IMO simply means the world,' God's creation. This is how He loved it, not that He gave His beloved Son for every single person on the planet, but for whoever believes on Him.

Our Lord Himself tells us that he laid down His life for the sheep (John 10:15). Who are Christ's sheep? Well, they are a special breed, distinguished by their ears and their feet. They hear the Shepherd's voice and they follow Him (John 10:27). He tells the Pharisees, "You do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you" (John 10:26). He does not say, "You are not of My sheep because you do not believe." I think you will do well to contemplate that fact.