Featured Romans 3:10-20

I think we have been through this. He BLOOD was shed for all sin, but the death and resurrection are specific in benefit to the believing ones. ("Those that believe are not condemned, those that do not believe are condemned already.")

Just the opposite.
If it says what it says, I believe what it says. If it doesn't say, then I may have an opinion, but cannot build doctrinal truth.

When did I ever accuse you of being self righteous?

I suggested that you consider (in light of the Scriptures posted by me) at what point a person can be seen as self righteous.

I apologize if my presentation made you take it as personal.

What in effect I was pointing out is that because the Scriptures clearly teach that self righteousness doesn't measure up, then a person is both incapable and in fact completely in a state of continual depravity.

Part of the misconception some have is with the term "total depravity" being taken as one being as depraved as can possibly be. Now, we all know that isn't the case. Rather, in dwelling in "total depravity" one continues in that condition of having no Devine ability, no righteousness, not even a spark of holiness.

I dwell in Texas. I am totally a Texan.

Now replace Texas with the word depravity. It would read, "I dwell in depravity, I am totally depraved."
Now carrying that a step further, when I go to Oklahoma, I am still a Texan and still all Texan.

Does that help?

I don't want to convince you into a scheme. All I do is remark upon the truth of Scriptures. On the BB, I have argued with calvinistic thinkers as well as non-calvinistic thinkers. Each time, it generally was over the truth of the Scriptures and not some scheme being the focus.

Now such a statement is not to present that most folks would look at my posts and declare me in agreement with much of the doctrines of grace. But, I am clearly not in lock step with such, either.

Do not look upon our discussions as me attempting to convince you away from or into a scheme, unless that scheme is a self made generation in which a basic denial of Scripture truth pours forth. Then it will be strongly confronted.

I personally think that the extremes of any scheme fail from the statements of the Scriptures into the arms of the enemy who loves to divide and distract in order to undermine the truth of God. That has been his whole agenda from Eden.

If ever you think I am attacking you, personally, know that I will not. At least not until you make outrageous claims that are not supported by Scriptures and actually are anti-Scriptural, and present such as righteousness expressed.

 

Watch out MB...the only fools ranting here are us men.

In addition, we as believers are not to speak evil of men ( Titus 3:2 ).
There is no difference talking bad about John Calvin, the Pope, a preacher we don't like, or a politician we might not agree with...it's all sin if we run the person down, especially in front of others.

I need to remember that, so there's 3 fingers pointing back at me when I point at someone else.

 

You are making some bold assertions concerning my thinking, my awareness, my level of study, and who I emulate.

Well good for your study habits. I would all took the Scriptures in serious study!

You claim exalted knowledge, and that may be, true. My mind is not nearly as sharp as it once was.

What I can state with full assurance is that if God said it, I believe it.

I sincerely doubt you could show where I ever, on the BB, neglected “the fact that Christ spoke in parables to keep people from perceiving and understanding to fulfill scripture.” But, should you find such a post, let me know so it can be properly deleted.

I did not even allude that “no one can hear and understand.” What I have consistently written is that which Romans presents. Not what those who demand human innate capacity, but what the Scriptures teach.

Did you happen to run across this passage in all your study?

14How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”16But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
​

Are you one who would present that everyone is born with innate human capacity to generate a self expressed human faith in which God will look upon and credit, or are you willing as I am to submit to the teaching presented in Scripture?

One more point. Do you actually present Acts 16:31 as a proof text, or as in context?

One who is typically grasping for just anything to support a scheme will more often proof text rather than present context.

You should look at the account of this conversion not from a single verse, but the whole testimony. Then you would see how it conforms to the statements found in the Romans and elsewhere. The Gospel was presented, heard by the jailer, creating within him that God given faith (belief) in which compelled him to respond.

As I have stated to both Calvinists and non-Calvinist, prove to me by Scripture that what I post is in error. I am willing to be conformed to the Scriptures while waiting to be transformed from this corruption to that incorruptible.

Be bold young man. Iron sharpens iron, and it is not shameful to present views backed up by proper use of Scripture.


But do try not to proof text. It leads to great error in some cases.

 

This is an excerpt from Martin Luther's Bondage of the Will which proves Total Depravity.

I OMIT to bring forward that truly Achillean Scripture of mine, which the Diatribe proudly passes by untouched—I mean, that which Paul teaches, Rom. vii. and Gal. v., that there is in the saints, and in the godly, so powerful a warfare between the spirit and the flesh, that they cannot do what they would. From this warfare I argue thus:—If the nature of man be so evil, even in those who are born again of the Spirit, that it does not only not endeavour after good, but is even averse to, and militates against good, how should it endeavour after good in those who are not born again of the Spirit, and who are still in the "old man," and serve under Satan? Nor does Paul there speak of the ’grosser affections’ only, (by means of which, as a common scape-gap, the Diatribe is accustomed to get out of the way of all the Scriptures,) but he enumerates among the works of the flesh heresy, idolatry, contentions, divisions, &c.; which he describes as reigning in those most exalted faculties; that is, in the reason and the will. If therefore, flesh with these affections war against the Spirit in the saints, much more will it war against God in the ungodly, and in "Free-will." Hence, Rom. viii. 7, he calls it "enmity against God."—I should like, I say, to see this argument of mine overturned, and "Free-will" defended against it.


Martin Luther The Bondage of the Will.

 

"For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing"

 

How in the world do you arrive at that?

 

Scripture to back up that claim? Don't try Jn. 12:32 I've already debunked that nonsense.

 

Are you presenting that John 12:32 is nonsense?



Actually I understand what you said, and agree. Strange how many neglect what John gave the reason for the statement in verse 33. "He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die."

 

No. Paul was quoting God's word which said a fool says there is no God. Which is a condtion of being lost, Ephesians 2:12. (James 2:19)

 

Oh boy, someone needs to learn some hermeneutics.

 

That is your false opinion, nothing more.

 

I am thinking that you need to review what is meant by total depravity.

As I mentioned above, Total depravity does not present that all men are equally depraved. Some sink to the seeming lowest levels, and others just at the surface, but all are covered over with the sea of sin and shackled to the bonds of death and decay.

Also, the "law of God" (decalogue) is written on every heart, so there is a natural moral compass innate in every person, but such does not present righteousness, but what is morally and socially acceptable. All societies have a basic moral law that is the same - murder is wrong, lying is wrong, adultery is wrong, ...

Total depravity is to be understood as the depravity has corrupted every aspect of that person's life, living, thinking, spirit, ... that there is no righteousness within the unbeliever.

These are presented as the condition of the unbelievers in the opening of Romans. Some present that Paul is signifying a special group of the unbelievers, but Paul makes no such distinction.

"18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."​

Total depravity does not present that unbelievers are incapable of making good choices, but that all the choices available to be made are ultimately corrupt and will decay. Even the Lord pointed this out, as a father knowing how to give good gifts. But there is never a source of the gift of righteousness except from one source.

For example, one may purchase a good car, but ultimately all cars end up in the scrape heap of rust and decay.
One is born, but from the minute they are, the next certain inescapable event is death.

The believer does not ever decay, but has eternal life. They abide in the source of righteousness.

 

Eve so, the war between flesh and Spirit in the believer proves his point.

 

Here is total depravity in the context of Ephesians 2:

"1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.​

I don't see much there to indicate less than the believer being totally depraved.

Does anyone see something that I am overlooking?