The Eternal Relational Subordination Of God the Son

[Yeshua1]

Logic and the Biblical truth of the written word of God. Check this out: The Son was already the Son when God said in time, not eternity, "This day I have begotten thee." It is a prophecy of the Son's bodlily resurrection from the dead. Psalms 2:7.


False accusation!

Jesus was begotten of anf from the Father, as in eternally God of very God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Logic and the Biblical truth of the written word of God. Check this out: The Son was already the Son when God said in time, not eternity, "This day I have begotten thee." It is a prophecy of the Son's bodlily resurrection from the dead. Psalms 2:7.


False accusation!

God is called the Ftaher of Jesus by Jesus Himself, and that was an eternal relationship!

 

[37818]

Do you agree with the Ecumenical creeds?

No. Parts yes. What is contrary to the Bible no.

 

[37818]

Jesus was begotten of anf from the Father, as in eternally God of very God!

Nonsense. The Bible teaches no such thing. The Son was always God and always with God, John 1:1-3.

 

[HankD]

It is my understanding only in Latin and some English translations is μονογενής translated as "only begotten."

i believe you are correct. otherwise its translated as something akin to unique.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nonsense. The Bible teaches no such thing. The Son was always God and always with God, John 1:1-3.

He eternally generated from the Father, and the Holy Spirit externally from both Father and the Son!
Is the problem fopr you be that you think being beotten refers to being created/made, and thus not fully God?

 

[37818]

i believe you are correct. otherwise its translated as something akin to unique.

Personaly, while I understand the extra Biblical interpreation "begotten of the Father before all ages" not to be eplicitly Biblical. I do not object to the concept of the only-begotten Son of the Father before all ages. The difference being the Son was not begotten in order to be always the only begotten Son. Protestants cite John 1:2, ". . . The same was in the beginning with God. . . ," as the justifying Scripture for that notion which I object to.

The Word, whom we identify as the "eteranl Son" was "In the beginning with God. . ." being understood to always to have been "with" God. And so this text identifying Him as someone who was always other than God, yet this verty text explitly identifies Him as "was God" and " All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." So He was also always God too. Never not God while always also not being God prior to His incaration, John 1:14. And He Himself being the sole cause of all caused things, John 1:3.

 

[37818]

He eternally generated from the Father, and the Holy Spirit externally from both Father and the Son!
Is the problem fopr you be that you think being beotten refers to being created/made, and thus not fully God?

Nonsense and not Biblical. The Son is the sole cause of all generated things, ". . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." Do you not grasp this?

 

[HankD]

Personaly, while I understand the extra Biblical interpreation "begotten of the Father before all ages" not to be eplicitly Biblical. I do not object to the concept of the only-begotten Son of the Father before all ages. The difference being the Son was not begotten in order to be always the only begotten Son. Protestants cite John 1:2, ". . . The same was in the beginning with God. . . ," as the justifying Scripture for that notion which I object to.

The Word, whom we identify as the "eteranl Son" was "In the beginning with God. . ." being understood to always to have been "with" God. And so this text identifying Him as someone who was always other than God, yet this verty text explitly identifies Him as "was God" and " All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." So He was also always God too. Never not God while always also not being God prior to His incaration, John 1:14. And He Himself being the sole cause of all caused things, John 1:3.

Yes, any language has difficulty with eternality.

We sometimes hear phrases like "from eternity past" or "into eternity future" - lol.

He was (in eternity) always with the Father and one day he broke forth, born of a woman into the time continuum.

 

[percho]

Personaly, while I understand the extra Biblical interpreation "begotten of the Father before all ages" not to be eplicitly Biblical. I do not object to the concept of the only-begotten Son of the Father before all ages. The difference being the Son was not begotten in order to be always the only begotten Son. Protestants cite John 1:2, ". . . The same was in the beginning with God. . . ," as the justifying Scripture for that notion which I object to.

The Word, whom we identify as the "eteranl Son" was "In the beginning with God. . ." being understood to always to have been "with" God. And so this text identifying Him as someone who was always other than God, yet this verty text explitly identifies Him as "was God" and " All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." So He was also always God too. Never not God while always also not being God prior to His incaration, John 1:14. And He Himself being the sole cause of all caused things, John 1:3.

Question??? and the Greek gurus may need to get into this.

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Heb 7:9,10

Can that be seen in John 3:1-14?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

Did Jesus of Nazareth the Son of the living God also pay tithes in Abraham? Jesus that the following was said of?

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 5:5,6
though being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, having been addressed by God a chief priest, according to the order of Melchisedek, Heb 5:8-10

Titus 1:3 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Who was that promise made for before the world begin? God the Son sitting across the table or on the right hand of God the Father?
What about for, a man, the Son of the Living God to be born of a virgin woman? Unique? I would say so. Only begotten? I would say so.

Acts 2:33 “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this (Holy Spirit) which you now see and hear.Titus 3:6 whom ( Holy Spirit) He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Did that make us inheritors of the promise God made before the world begin? What does the next verse say?

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The Holy Spirit makes us heirs, not yet inheritors. Who has inherited the promise of God?

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.Heb 1:2,4

When?

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:5

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. H5:10

More interesting thought.

Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;
Hebrews 7:15,16 And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the similitude of Melchisedek there doth arise another priest, who came not according to the law of a fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life, for He doth testify -- 'Thou art a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'

UNIQUE, ONLY BEGOTTEN

Adam Clarke on Ex 3:14

Verse 14

I am that I am - אהיה אשר אהיה Eheyeh asher Eheyeh . These words have been variously understood. The Vulgate translates Ego Sum Qui Sum, I am who am. The Septuagint, Εγω ειμι ὁ Ων, I am he who exists. The Syriac, the Persic, and the Chaldee preserve the original words without any gloss. The Arabic paraphrases them, The Eternal, who passes not away; which is the same interpretation given by Abul Farajius, who also preserves the original words, and gives the above as their interpretation. The Targum of Jonathan, and the Jerusalem Targum paraphrase the words thus: "He who spake, and the world was; who spake, and all things existed." As the original words literally signify, I will be what I will be, some have supposed that God simply designed to inform Moses, that what he had been to his fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he would be to him and the Israelites; and that he would perform the promises he had made to his fathers, by giving their descendants the promised land. It is difficult to put a meaning on the words; they seem intended to point out the eternity and self-existence of God. Plato, in his Parmenides, where he treats sublimely of the nature of God, says, Ουδ ' αρα ονομα εστιν αυτῳ, nothing can express his nature; therefore no name can be attributed to him. See the conclusion of this chapter, Exodus 3:22; (note) and on the word Jehovah, Exodus 34:6; (note), Exodus 34:7; (note).

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I will be what I will be

 

[HankD]

Question??? and the Greek gurus may need to get into this.

And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him. Heb 7:9,10

Can that be seen in John 3:1-14?

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:16

Did Jesus of Nazareth the Son of the living God also pay tithes in Abraham? Jesus that the following was said of?

So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Hebrews 5:5,6
though being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, having been addressed by God a chief priest, according to the order of Melchisedek, Heb 5:8-10

Titus 1:3 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Who was that promise made for before the world begin? God the Son sitting across the table or on the right hand of God the Father?
What about for, a man, the Son of the Living God to be born of a virgin woman? Unique? I would say so. Only begotten? I would say so.

Acts 2:33 “Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this (Holy Spirit) which you now see and hear.Titus 3:6 whom ( Holy Spirit) He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Did that make us inheritors of the promise God made before the world begin? What does the next verse say?

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

The Holy Spirit makes us heirs, not yet inheritors. Who has inherited the promise of God?

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.Heb 1:2,4

When?

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:5

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec. H5:10

More interesting thought.

Romans 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him hath no more lordship;
Hebrews 7:15,16 And it is yet more abundantly most evident, if according to the similitude of Melchisedek there doth arise another priest, who came not according to the law of a fleshly command, but according to the power of an endless life, for He doth testify -- 'Thou art a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'

UNIQUE, ONLY BEGOTTEN

Adam Clarke on Ex 3:14

Verse 14

I am that I am - אהיה אשר אהיה Eheyeh asher Eheyeh . These words have been variously understood. The Vulgate translates Ego Sum Qui Sum, I am who am. The Septuagint, Εγω ειμι ὁ Ων, I am he who exists. The Syriac, the Persic, and the Chaldee preserve the original words without any gloss. The Arabic paraphrases them, The Eternal, who passes not away; which is the same interpretation given by Abul Farajius, who also preserves the original words, and gives the above as their interpretation. The Targum of Jonathan, and the Jerusalem Targum paraphrase the words thus: "He who spake, and the world was; who spake, and all things existed." As the original words literally signify, I will be what I will be, some have supposed that God simply designed to inform Moses, that what he had been to his fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, he would be to him and the Israelites; and that he would perform the promises he had made to his fathers, by giving their descendants the promised land. It is difficult to put a meaning on the words; they seem intended to point out the eternity and self-existence of God. Plato, in his Parmenides, where he treats sublimely of the nature of God, says, Ουδ ' αρα ονομα εστιν αυτῳ, nothing can express his nature; therefore no name can be attributed to him. See the conclusion of this chapter, Exodus 3:22; (note) and on the word Jehovah, Exodus 34:6; (note), Exodus 34:7; (note).

Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I will be what I will be

He is self sustaining, self defining.

The Tetragrammaton is a concatenation of the Hebrew grammatical signification of I was, I am, I will be.

 

[37818]

Question??? and the Greek gurus may need to get into this.

Where in the New Testament are you getting the Greek gurus?

You ask many questions.

As for Hebrews 1:5, see Psalms 2:7 and its New Testament meaning, see Acts of the Apostles 13:33.

 

[agedman]

He is self sustaining, self defining.

The Tetragrammaton is a concatenation of the Hebrew grammatical signification of I was, I am, I will be.

I praise God that you again cause my mind to stretch to long forgotten and neglected words.

Thank you!

 

[percho]

Does, "only begotten Son," ever have any relativity to the virgin Mary

 

[37818]

Does, "only begotten Son," ever have any relativity to the virgin Mary

No. Has to do with the Son being uniquely God's Son, Proverbs 30:4, not the incarnation, John 1:14. Note that the Son to be the sole cause of all caused things, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-18, Revelation 3:14.

 

[SATS PROF]

While it is gratifying to see the interest in defining the Person of Christ and His relationship to God the Father, I think it too bad that we believers cannot even agree on the nature of the One who is central to our Faith.

IMO, the divine nature of God the Son never was role subordinatre to the Father. He was only role subordinate in His human nature.

Philippians 2:7, 8. " By taking the form (nature) of a slave, He humbled Himself BECOMING ( not continuing to be) obedient"

As my better, Charles Hodge, states, " neither was the obedience of Christ...the obedience of the divine nature." Systematic Theology2:395.



I have been very interested in this topic for 20 years.

Bill Grover

Unizul ThD. dissertation, "The Obedient Son 2005
Corban University D Min Thesis: "Teaching Jesus" in progress 2019
published small book: "Comprehending Christ" 2019.

God forgive me for my errors. And, God bless us for loving the Lord Jesus.

 

[37818]

IMO, the divine nature of God the Son never was role subordinatre to the Father. He was only role subordinate in His human nature.

OK. But note: ". . . In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. . . ." -- John 1:1-2. To be with God is to be someone other than God, which means He is eternally subordinate to God. Yet, that He "was God," He would also eternally not be subordinate! And that He was God, He would be immutably God.

 

[percho]

In the beginning was the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim, and the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim, was with God, and the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim,
was God. John 1:1 The same was in the beginning with God. 2

Logos,λόγος, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

And the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim, became flesh.

 

[37818]

In the beginning was the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim, and the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim, was with God, and the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim,
was God. John 1:1 The same was in the beginning with God. 2

Logos,λόγος, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

And the, what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim, became flesh.

In the beginning was the Cause/Reason with the Uncaused, and the Cause/Reason was Uncaused. The same [Cause/Reason] was with the Uncaused. All things were caused by Him [the Cause/Reason]; and without Him [the Cause/Reason] was not any thing caused that was caused.

 

[Yeshua1]

Nonsense and not Biblical. The Son is the sole cause of all generated things, ". . All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. . . ." Do you not grasp this?

Do you think only begooten somehow means was created at some point in time, or else not fully equal to the Father?