Who can argue against

John Piper in the article, “What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism” (Desiring God) gives this perspective from a believer’s viewpoint.

1. We experience first our depravity and need of salvation.
2. Then we experience the irresistible grace of God leading us toward faith.
3. Then we trust the sufficiency of the atoning death of Christ for our sins.
4. Then we discover that behind the work of God to atone for our sins and bring us to faith was the unconditional election of God.
5. And finally we rest in his electing grace to give us the strength and will to persevere to the end in faith.

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This thread takes only the first statement under examination.

Piper, in the article gives these statements concerning depravity

When we speak of man’s depravity, we mean man’s natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

... total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sinful, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.

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Piper very effectively express application concerning this point to every believer. Prior to discussion it would be wise to read what Piper actually wrote What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

This thread is to focus upon the matter of depravity as Piper presents. Other points will be addressed later, but not in this thread.

Do you (the reader) agree that “...man’s natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man“ is one of depravity?

Do you (the reader) agree that all are in “...rebellion against God”. That such rebellion, “is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sinful, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.”?

What other foundation, in opposition to one being completely incapable, enslaved to the passions of this flesh, unconcerned and unimpressed by Christ, is presented in Scripture?

Thoughts?

 

I was wondering over archived threads from back when.

It was good to remember some who no longer post, some who probably past, and some who might (like me) be here but didn't go back to using long ago and forgotten information log on information.

One of the "remarkables" is that the thread titles started from way back are about similar topics to those more often started now.

As I looked into some, of them, the same excuses for discarding and attempts to discredit the truth were offered.

The archives don't go back to when I originally signed on. I don't even remember the login or password. It was long ago, and not worth the effort. Do wish the very earliest threads were still available. Dr. Bob was just a kid.

If I recall an immigrant from Europe named Thomas was the one who started the BB.

 

I agree, and I would add that I have encountered the most difficulty with false teaching stemming from a lack of understanding and accepting as factual the total authority and Sovereignty of God.

If one does not acknowledge His attributes are without limit nor is it in His capacity to place limits upon Himself, then that person can accept any manner of false teaching without questioning its validity merely because it may fit some human conjured scheme in which they construct.

 

I do not accept God has "elected some to be lost" thinking.

Such would imply (at least) some obligation and some need to determine. He has neither obligation nor need to determine that estate for the lost. Such are, as John records the Lord Jesus, "Condemned already."

That God selected according to His design from those that were "condemned already," bought and brought them as adopted heirs are far beyond our pay grade, for it is certainly and totally of His unmerited favor (grace) and by His faith that He redeemed us.

 

The basic difficulty that is the human perception of their condition not being completely depraved as typically revealed in statements such as:

I'm not as bad as... (and then someone like a Dommer or Hitler is presented)
I have freedom to choose... (yet what choice does not decay and ultimately fail)
God is not willing that any should perish... (as if that obliges God to be merciful to all)
God desires all to be saved ... (that God has laid out His final and best offer does not even suggest ability to "accept")
It will all balance out in the end, I'm basically a good person...(as if good means one has righteousness)
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As a teen, I pondered on why God would first open the volumes and books at the final judgment. Why was every person judged out of the books concerning all that they did in life, prior to looking to see if the name was written down in the book of life?

One day it occurred to me. Because humankind needs a reality check. They need to actually see the depth of the depraved in the sinfulness of every human decision, motive and thought.

Then, while standing before the most Holy God, know why and even agree they should be cast into the "lake of fire." Did the man in torment disagree with the sentence and punishment? Or did that man plead that others not be sent?

That some have the audacity to present some human ability to attain, or even that God provides some middle ground in which that person has the freedom of choice is so far removed from the basic truth presented in Scriptures that it cannot be found in the final judgment.

There will be no excuses, only agreement that justice is served.

Humankind is not just a little bad, but are rotten from the core. Totally depraved and evil.