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For God so loved the world (Earth as the temple of God)
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
The best verse ever for limited atonement
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Not if Dr. Causey has correctly divided the word.
(... and it isn’t the usual “the ‘world’ really means ...” koine Greek slight of hand.)
The verse is Calvinism/Arminianism neutral and deals with something far more important and fundamental.
37818
Well-Known Member
Please explain how John 3:16 teaches limited atonement. Please step by step.
Since the article gets the premise wrong the entire article is therefore wrong. For its premise it drags out the old, tired, and false claim that the biblical.understanding of John 3:16 leads to an implication of universal salvation. No one believes that or holds to that. Neither is it true that since it does mean everyone and not just the elect that it must also mean universal salvation. Calvies need to get new arguments.
or...you do not understand the article once again....ITL can tell us what number that is...
read the article, it is simple.
37818
Well-Known Member
The article is wrong. It makes the false assertion, ". . . In John’s writings “the world” (ho kosmos) rarely if ever carries the sense of “all mankind” or “every human who ever lived.” It certainly doesn’t mean that in 3:16 because that would make nonsense of the immediately following verse. . . ." John 3:17, ". . . For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. . . ." Same part of Greek grammar as ". . . should . . . perish . . ." used in John 3:16, so does not change the scope of the promise.
Once again we have squabbling over "world" in John 3:16. The word refers to fallen mankind, as John almost always uses it to refer to fallen mankind or the corrupt value system of fallen mankind. Everyone believing into Him, does not indicate all of fallen mankind will believe, just that those who do, as determined by God, will be saved.
Particular
Well-Known Member
It's one thing to believe in universalism and another thing to see the logical path of unlimited atonement.
I find that very few people take their worldview/ideology to its logical end. If they did, they would shudder and abandon the view.
Atheists, for example, rarely follow the implications of naturalism/darwinism to its conclusion. If the did they would recognize there is no ethos and the movement of anatomical particles is set and determined so that nothing happens other than what nature has determined.
Most people only run with their worldview to where they feel good about themselves. Beyond that, they just ignore it.
37818
Well-Known Member
We are dealing with more than just two Christian [world] views on John 3:16-17. My view is a third. Actual universalism can count as a fouth. And there are others which call themself to be Christian.
Here is the basic difficulty.
Both sides are pointing to a single verse and attempting to prove or disprove a scheme.
Such is just not an appropriate way to attend to the Scriptures.
"Precept upon precept"
So, perhaps we should all agree on these very basic precepts.
"Love" - that in which God has the capacity and those believers who are filled with the steps added to faith as found in 2 Peter 1 may achieve having accomplished all prior requirements.
"World" - in the most basic literal sense is to be taken as all creation.
"Gave" - that which cost the Father and was not determined owed or capable of being earned by the creation.
"Only Begotten Son" - the absolutely only unique born Son of whom there was none other nor will ever
"Whosoever" - archaic English form which is better in our modern statements "those who" or "all who"
"Believes" - has faith,
"In Him" - in the Son
"Shall not perish" - not utterly destroyed (without hope)
"But has everlasting life - eternal viability
How does this teach limited atonement?
Simple.
There are those who will not believe and they will not have eternal life.
There are those who will believe and they will have eternal life.
This verse does NOT teach anything pertaining to the offer of salvation.
This verse does NOT teach anything pertaining to how salvation is acquired.
This verse simply teaches that God is faithful to His creation, that He has made His best offer for the redemption of the creation, and the results of that best offer.
For those who desire to make a universal or some other view - it is inappropriate.
For those who desire to make it more limited than that stated concerning the determination of belief - it is inappropriate.
Both sides are pointing to a single verse and attempting to prove or disprove a scheme.
Such is just not an appropriate way to attend to the Scriptures.
"Precept upon precept"
So, perhaps we should all agree on these very basic precepts.
"Love" - that in which God has the capacity and those believers who are filled with the steps added to faith as found in 2 Peter 1 may achieve having accomplished all prior requirements.
"World" - in the most basic literal sense is to be taken as all creation.
"Gave" - that which cost the Father and was not determined owed or capable of being earned by the creation.
"Only Begotten Son" - the absolutely only unique born Son of whom there was none other nor will ever
"Whosoever" - archaic English form which is better in our modern statements "those who" or "all who"
"Believes" - has faith,
"In Him" - in the Son
"Shall not perish" - not utterly destroyed (without hope)
"But has everlasting life - eternal viability
How does this teach limited atonement?
Simple.
There are those who will not believe and they will not have eternal life.
There are those who will believe and they will have eternal life.
This verse does NOT teach anything pertaining to the offer of salvation.
This verse does NOT teach anything pertaining to how salvation is acquired.
This verse simply teaches that God is faithful to His creation, that He has made His best offer for the redemption of the creation, and the results of that best offer.
For those who desire to make a universal or some other view - it is inappropriate.
For those who desire to make it more limited than that stated concerning the determination of belief - it is inappropriate.
Did you glance at the verses offered in the article?
Here is Jn13:1
John 13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come
that he should depart out of this world unto the Father,
having loved his own which were in the world,
he loved them unto the end.
Looks like a clear difference between the place known as the world, and then His own which were in the world.
So His own were in or among the world, but not everyone ever born is in view.
Jn15:
18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Jesus saw His chosen or elected people as distinct from the world of the ungodly.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
I suppose that depends on how deeply one understands the atonement...
what was actually accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished for.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ).
This declares that God gave His only begotten Son for a reason...
So that whosoever believeth "in Him" should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is definitive, in that the reason God gave His Son, was so those that believe would:
1) Not perish.
2) Have everlasting life.
Not only do I see it being the Gospel in synopsis, it is directly related to other Scriptures and dovetails with them perfectly.
A) "as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).
Eternal life given only to as many as were given to Him by His Father.
B) " And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:39-40 ).
Of all that were given to Him by His Father, none shall be lost...none shall perish.
The same ones given to Him by His Father, are the ones who see and believe on Him.
C) " For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world." ( John 6:33 ).
"World" here is the same "world" being spoken of in John 3:16, and further defined in many other places.
The "world" ( Revelation 5:8, Revelation 7:8 ) that was given to Him by his Father in John 17:2.
His elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation are the only ones He gives life to...as many as were given to Him by His Father.
D) " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 )
The "whosoever believeth" were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world, to be placed within the spiritual body of Christ.
They were predestinated to their adoption as children.
They were made accepted within the beloved by the Lord, they did not make themselves accepted.
E) " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.
The "whosoever believeth", once again, yet limited by the fact that they must be ordained to eternal life in order to believe.
Dovetails with John 17:2.
F) " For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 and [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." ( 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 ).
He died for they which live.
The "all" is the "world" in John 3:16, as well as "world" in 1 John 2:2 and Romans 11:12-15.
Them that are "called", both Jew and Gentile ( Romans 9:24 ).
That is a sampling, and there are many others that could be brought in to help...
But that is only one of many ways that I see how John 3:16 captures "limited atonement" ( Definite Atonement, Particular Redemption ).
However, it must be "fleshed out" from other Scriptures that all refer to aspects that are being stated in that one verse, as I see it.
Each topic stated in John 3:16 can be taken to others Scriptures and developed from them...
For example,
How can "world" be defined strictly from Scripture without assumed definitions being brought in ( Revelation 5:8, Revelation 7:8, Romans 9:24 )?
How can eternal or everlasting life be defined ( John 17:3 )?
How can "whosoever believeth" be defined ( John 6:39-40, John 6:64-65, John 6:29, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 10:26-27 ).
How can "should not perish" be defined ( John 6:39, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39, John 5:24, 2 Peter 3:9 )?
What is it to "perish" ( Matthew 5:29 )?
The same way that "foreknowledge" / "foreknown" is defined ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139 )...
By what God says, not by what men say.
May God bless you all.
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atpollard
Well-Known Member
Rather than retread the same territory, you might want to listen to the sermon by Dr. Causey. The mission of One Hope is to present the gospel to every child on the earth and the subject is related to his specific Thesis topic. So he might have some insights beyond the same old, same old.
Yes, the Gospel should be preached. Amen!
37818
Well-Known Member
This thread has the unBiblical premise that the earth is somehow God's temple. The written word of God calls it His footstool. ". . . Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: . . ." -- Isaiah 66:1. ". . . Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: . . ." -- Acts of the Apostles 2:49.
37818
Well-Known Member
The promise of John 3:16 is not explicit in the same way as the promise in John 10:28. John 3:16, "may perish not and may have eternal life." John 10:28, "give to them eternal life and they shall not in any way perish."I suppose that depends on how deeply one understands the atonement...
what was actually accomplished at the cross, and for whom it was accomplished for.
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." ( John 3:16 ).
This declares that God gave His only begotten Son for a reason...
So that whosoever believeth "in Him" should not perish, but have everlasting life.
This is definitive, in that the reason God gave His Son, was so those that believe would:
1) Not perish.
2) Have everlasting life.
Not only do I see it being the Gospel in synopsis, it is directly related to other Scriptures and dovetails with them perfectly.
A) "as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).
Eternal life given only to as many as were given to Him by His Father.
B) " And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." ( John 6:39-40 ).
Of all that were given to Him by His Father, none shall be lost...none shall perish.
The same ones given to Him by His Father, are the ones who see and believe on Him.
C) " For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world." ( John 6:33 ).
"World" here is the same "world" being spoken of in John 3:16, and further defined in many other places.
The "world" ( Revelation 5:8, Revelation 7:8 ) that was given to Him by his Father in John 17:2.
His elect out of every tongue, tribe and nation are the only ones He gives life to...as many as were given to Him by His Father.
D) " according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 to the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." ( Ephesians 1:4-6 )
The "whosoever believeth" were chosen "in Him" before the foundation of the world, to be placed within the spiritual body of Christ.
They were predestinated to their adoption as children.
They were made accepted within the beloved by the Lord, they did not make themselves accepted.
E) " And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.
The "whosoever believeth", once again, yet limited by the fact that they must be ordained to eternal life in order to believe.
Dovetails with John 17:2.
F) " For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 and [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again." ( 2 Corinthians 5:14-15 ).
He died for they which live.
The "all" is the "world" in John 3:16, as well as "world" in 1 John 2:2 and Romans 11:12-15.
Them that are "called", both Jew and Gentile ( Romans 9:24 ).
That is a sampling, and there are many others that could be brought in to help...
But that is only one of many ways that I see how John 3:16 captures "limited atonement" ( Definite Atonement, Particular Redemption ).
However, it must be "fleshed out" from other Scriptures that all refer to aspects that are being stated in that one verse, as I see it.
Each topic stated in John 3:16 can be taken to others Scriptures and developed from them...
For example,
How can "world" be defined strictly from Scripture without assumed definitions being brought in ( Revelation 5:8, Revelation 7:8, Romans 9:24 )?
How can eternal or everlasting life be defined ( John 17:3 )?
How can "whosoever believeth" be defined ( John 6:39-40, John 6:64-65, John 6:29, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 10:26-27 ).
How can "should not perish" be defined ( John 6:39, John 10:28-29, Romans 8:31-39, John 5:24, 2 Peter 3:9 )?
What is it to "perish" ( Matthew 5:29 )?
The same way that "foreknowledge" / "foreknown" is defined ( Jeremiah 1:5, Psalms 139 )...
By what God says, not by what men say.
May God bless you all.
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37818
Well-Known Member
Might add:
John 15:19, ". . . chosen you out of the world, . . ."
Christ died for the whole world (1 John 2:2). His elect are from out of the world.